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I'm sorry, but that's silly. The best way to convince people we're enemies of Islam is to do our absolute best to convince people we don't do things like deface Korans. Which means lying, if we do in fact do those things.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Coming a bit late to this and I don't know if you're going to see this comment or not -- but I still disagree.<BR/><BR/>Information about US soldiers defacing Korans is going to come out one way or the other. No, it might not be definitive and might remain a he said/she said story (like the Juanita Broaddrick one), but the people who are predisposed to believe such things will most certainly believe them.<BR/><BR/>And if we're going to be lying about it, we may, in fact, get caught in this lie.<BR/><BR/>I think the best way to neutralize it is to admit that, yes, there are soldiers who have done those things, and then go on to say that we consider such behavior intolerable and that we discipline the perpetrators.<BR/><BR/><I>You overestimate the value of telling the truth. The TRUTH, for example, is that most Americans think Islam is a weird, misguided and/or evil religion whose adherents are probably going to Hell when they die. </I><BR/><BR/>Are you so sure about that? According to polls I've seen, most American Christians now take the view that you don't need to be a Christian to go to Heaven.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132705775740711052005-11-22T19:29:00.000-05:002005-11-22T19:29:00.000-05:00Sadly, I have to get out of here, or I'd give this...Sadly, I have to get out of here, or I'd give this the long reply I'd like to. So, I'll just point out that Plamegate is a poor example. A week after the scandal broke, the rumour was that Libby was the leak. He was certainly one of them.<BR/><BR/>Have a good Thanksgiving.<BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132704491817081852005-11-22T19:08:00.000-05:002005-11-22T19:08:00.000-05:00If you look at them funny, the nuts are strengthen...<I>If you look at them funny, the nuts are strengthened in their convictions. There is not one thing we can do to change the convictions of the nuts.</I><BR/><BR/>Hopefully that's not correct, because there are millions of nuts in the Islamic world. Everybody who thinks a book is as important as a human life, for starters.<BR/><BR/>But it isn't just the nuts. All people are susceptible to the same fallacious reasoning -- that if a person accused of X, Y, and Z is guilty of X, he's probably guilty of Y and Z too.<BR/><BR/><I>If they are hearing all these stories and we aren't even talking about it, it looks like we are either covering things up or simply don't care that it is happening.</I><BR/><BR/>We were talking about it. We were denying it. And if we confirm it, it looks like the nuts were right. The trustworthiness of the nuts is increased in peoples' eyes. What you are saying is that the best way to convince people we're not enemies of Islam is to admit that we deface Korans. I'm sorry, but that's silly. The best way to convince people we're enemies of Islam is to do our absolute best to convince people we don't do things like deface Korans. Which means lying, if we do in fact do those things.<BR/><BR/><I>Again, let me point out that we live in the information age</I><BR/><BR/>Which is why it is important to think about what you say, and not simply speak the truth out of the irrational belief that everything will magically work out fine in the end.<BR/><BR/><I>Things don't stay buried any more.</I><BR/><BR/>That's a religious belief, not a rational one. Look at the "Plamegate" scandal, to name one trivial example -- two years later we still don't have any clear idea of whether Plame was really covert, or who first outed her, or why they did it. Look at the Bill Clinton/Juanita Broderick rape story -- that was, what, 7 years ago now, and we still have no idea which one's telling the truth. We don't know where bin Laden is, or if he's still alive. We don't know what happened to the chemical weapons Hussein told the UN he had, or even if he really had them in the first place. And so on, and so on.<BR/><BR/>In any case, there is a world of difference between failing to keep something perfectly secret, and shouting from the rooftops that it's true. Say some guard comes forward as a whistleblower and says he personally flushed a Koran at Gitmo. So what? He can get in line with the guards who have come forward to confirm they worked on UFOs at area 51 and the folks who claim to have been personally involved in Kennedy's assassination. Most people treat internet rumors with the respect they deserve. The mainstream media, for not-particularly-good reasons, is given far more credibility.<BR/><BR/>You overestimate the value of telling the truth. The TRUTH, for example, is that most Americans think Islam is a weird, misguided and/or evil religion whose adherents are probably going to Hell when they die. Should we be careful to make sure that the world understands that truth? Or might it, perhaps, be counterproductive? Might a lie -- "America respects Islam, which is one of the world's great religions" -- be a smarter play?Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132682937623255562005-11-22T13:08:00.000-05:002005-11-22T13:08:00.000-05:00There would be violence and outrage, and, in the e...<I>There would be violence and outrage, and, in the end, international pressure to stop the practice. Instead of all this conspiracy theory underground rumour mongering garbage, the issues would be forced into the light of day.</I><BR/><BR/>That's not how humans think.<BR/><BR/>If people believe that some entity is guilty of crimes A through Z, and you show evidence in support of crime A, people's belief in B through Z gets strengthened as well. If you publish a story saying "the United States disrespects the Koran", the end result will definitely NOT be that the rest of the world says "oh, well now that we know the US is being honest, we can go ahead and stop believing all this crazy shit". The end result will be "if the evil Americans are willing to admit to THAT, imagine what ELSE they're doing". The nuts will be strengthened in their convictions.<BR/><BR/><I>If you think that is ok, fine. But the debate about what should be done in our names needs to be out in the open</I><BR/><BR/>No, it doesn't.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132679746944009232005-11-22T12:15:00.000-05:002005-11-22T12:15:00.000-05:00Revenant,Sure. It would be bad to publish a rumor...Revenant,<BR/><BR/>Sure. It would be bad to publish a rumor with no shred of truth to it. If it was very likely true in substance, if not detailed specifics, I'm not sure that would be so bad. There would be violence and outrage, and, in the end, international pressure to stop the practice. Instead of all this conspiracy theory underground rumour mongering garbage, the issues would be forced into the light of day. Granted, your example is pretty ridiculous, but you see my point.<BR/><BR/>With the Koran story, we all find the idea of actually 'flushing' a Koran to be highly unlikely. However, it is highly likely that Koran desecration was occurring. If you think that is ok, fine. But the debate about what should be done in our names needs to be out in the open. You, like Cheney and Rumsfield, may believe for the greater good of this country, it is necessary to do nasty things in secret. Maybe that worked, somewhat, in the past. (Though in South American and Africa, that has left us with some long term messes to deal with.) But this is now. We are in a whole new world. You can send a photo across the world in minutes. We don't have the luxury of Cold War style information control. At best, at the most controlled, we can delay negative information getting out. We can't stop it. So if we want to win this war, we are going to have to stop living in the past, and start figuring out quickly how to be effective in the open.<BR/><BR/>Another link for you: http://www.juancole.com/2005/05/guantanamo-controversies-bible-and.html<BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132638952588335772005-11-22T00:55:00.000-05:002005-11-22T00:55:00.000-05:00Here's a question -- if there had been more uncert...Here's a question -- if there had been more uncertainty than mere CYA clauses in the WMD assessments, where were all the <I>pre-war</I> CIA leaks of the caveats? If somebody is willing to illegally leak classified information <I>after</I> a war is launched, how malicious does he have to be to sit quietly by and let the war get started in the first place because of something he genuinely believes to be false?<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, isn't it quite in keeping with human nature that, after the intelligence estimates prepared by a person <I>turn out</I> to be false, for that person to try to deflect the blame by saying those who acted on his estimates ignored his reservations, as expressed in standard bureaucratic CYA clauses?<BR/><BR/>We have a choice here -- either the people making the CIA intelligence estimates were malicious anti-American bastards, or they were covering their asses after being proven wrong. If the first, yeah, the Administration shaded the truth -- but our most pressing problem is the CIA's utter lack of anyone with a conscience. If the second, then all the Administration did was report what the CIA found shorn of bureaucratese, and we had an honest mistake by reasonable people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1132600307657998492005-11-21T14:11:00.000-05:002005-11-21T14:11:00.000-05:00However widely a rumor might circulate, it still g...However widely a rumor might circulate, it still gains a lot of credibility from being printed in a "respectable" news outlet.<BR/><BR/>Imagine if Newsweek printed a story saying "sources say that Israeli Jews drink the blood of Palestinians". Yeah, plenty of Muslims already believe stuff like that about Jews, but it is easy to see how confirming it would be bad.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.com