tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post113983083377161405..comments2024-03-29T05:31:02.923-04:00Comments on The Y Files: Flanagan's folliesCathy Younghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140069358549328402006-02-16T00:55:00.000-05:002006-02-16T00:55:00.000-05:00Flanagan missed a point where she could have empha...Flanagan missed a point where she could have emphasized the victimization of poor young girls.<BR/><BR/>After bringing their male cohorts to satisfaction they are forced to endure the fumblings and 'inarticulateness' of boys when trying to reciprocate.<BR/><BR/>Rather than ignoring this she should have used it as evidence of double victimization.<BR/><BR/>Or not.<BR/><BR/>And why wasn't this the accepted and standard cultural practice when I was in high school?XWLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646729965929680256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140043058410149322006-02-15T17:37:00.000-05:002006-02-15T17:37:00.000-05:00mythago,I don't get that either. To my perpetual ...mythago,<BR/><BR/>I don't get that either. To my perpetual discomfort, most heterosexual men find female homosexuality to be a turn on, rather than a deterrent.<BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140041577263533082006-02-15T17:12:00.000-05:002006-02-15T17:12:00.000-05:00iguana, if I am understanding you right, what you'...iguana, if I am understanding you right, what you're saying is that teenage girls should never act on sexual feelings or curiosity about other girls, because it might be a turn-off for a potential boyfriend? <BR/>It's just that your conclusion is so bizarre that I'm thinking I must somehow have read you wrong. (And didn't we go through all this in <I>Chasing Amy</I>?)mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140034237797228712006-02-15T15:10:00.000-05:002006-02-15T15:10:00.000-05:00strategichamlet: correct me if I'm wrong the numbe...strategichamlet: <I>correct me if I'm wrong the numbers cited are total, not just those outside of relationships.</I><BR/><BR/>Everyone knows teenagers don't have relationships.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140032968947918342006-02-15T14:49:00.000-05:002006-02-15T14:49:00.000-05:00... well-worn conservative shibboleth that women, ...<I>... well-worn conservative shibboleth that women, and girls in particular, have been victimized by sexual liberation and the loss of patriarchal protections.</I><BR/><BR/>Your conclusion is on target. Really, as long as conservatives are classifying girls and women as victims, gender feminists are happy to go along with them. The GF's don't care that what conservatives supposedly worry about is the loss of "patriarchal protection."<BR/><BR/>If girls are victims of anything in this sex rampage teenagers seem to be on (which was going on when I was a teenager all those years ago as well, with plenty of aggressively sexual girls too, so what's new about any of this?), it's due to the fact that they are being encouraged to question whether they are hetero or homo. Now, for me, either scenario is acceptable, but really this is something I think people know about themselves from a young age. Exploring lesbianism isn't such a good idea for a naturally hetero girl. The reason: it's a turn off for a lot of guys who have learned (and some have even been taught by parents that are catching on to deconstructionist forces at work in society) that its best to stay away from any sort of confusing sexual context with women. E.g., any hint of bisexuality really should be avoided, because it invites heartbreak down the road. So, these girls that are "exploring" may find themselves shunned by many young men, in particular those that they get close enough to that they openly discuss their sexual history. Imagine that - when a woman feels that close to a man, she is likely in love or close to it, and it would be at just that point when she runs the risk of being shunned by the guy she's fallen for.<BR/><BR/>In the mean time, mutual oral sex at these ages doesn't seem like much of a threat to me. There is nothing new about it and it's natural for both boys and girls to start waking up sexually at that age. We ought to be teaching them to be careful, and if you are religious, perhaps you want to add a moral aspect to the teaching. But, freaking out about it? That's silly.<BR/><BR/>Now, if this "expert" that wants to know about the pressure boys are putting on girls - he must have just been a very homely teenager or grown up in an extremely oppressed environment. Any normal teenager (or adult) can honestly tell you that girls are as aggressive if not more aggressive than boys are with regard to sex. A "survey" with leading questions might be able to evoke what is left of the idea that women should be more chast about these things and get answers that suggest that most of the sex they have been involved in was initiated by a boy and pushed on girl. But, I seriously doubt that a well designed (thus accurate) survey of teenagers would show that boys are the cause of increasing rates of oral sex.<BR/><BR/>I, for one, cheer the idea of oral sex being the first line of sexual exploration. Intercourse at that age leads to catastrophies. Oral sex, except for some chance of spreading desease (herpes in particular), has few potential long term consequences.<BR/><BR/>But, while all of this is being sorted out, let's not forget that your basic premise that we are blaming everything on boys and men was worked into the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). The new "date rape" provision of VAWA assumes that boys are the aggressive side of teenage sex. I suspect there will be a witch hunt in your local high school trying to make examples out of teenage boys. There will be plenty of gender feminist propaganda spread in these schools encouraging girls to think of themselves as victims and, worse, to accuse boys of rape when girls decide after consensual sex that they didn't much like the boy (or the sex) afterall.<BR/><BR/>It's imperitave for those of us that have seen the destruction caused by VAWA so far to get the message out to teenage boys and their parents - BE CAREFUL. Take no risks.<BR/><BR/>This gives both conservatives and gender feminists pretty much what they want, unfortunately. It leaves girls exploring sexuality with other girls (the GF goal), and leaves boys afraid to have premarital sex (conservative goal). But, sometimes its better to give in to the negative social forces at work in order to protect your son.Iguanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17433833187303202181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1140027283569401052006-02-15T13:14:00.000-05:002006-02-15T13:14:00.000-05:00Well, I am admittedly old, but my stars, hasn't se...Well, I am admittedly old, but my stars, hasn't sex talk become more...CANDID than it was when I was a teenager!<BR/><BR/>My senior year of high school, a good friend was fooling around (a term we actually used back then) with her boyfriend in the bed of the couple whose child she was babysitting. It got late, Mom and Pop were almost home, and she had to send her sweetie home and make up the bed. Unable to find the incriminating panties, she made the bed with them somewhere amid the sheets. <BR/><BR/>This is, and I kid you not, the very raciest story I can remember. And half the fun was in speculating what the Missus of the house made of those panties next time she did laundry. I was never able to find out whether the couple stayed married.<BR/><BR/>To my old-fangled ears, a lot of this super-frank and graphic talk about sex just sounds gross. And I'm a lesbian, so I'm not supposed to say "yuck" about much of anything. One thing I do find encouraging is that if we grownups do manage to make it all sound graphic and puko-disgusto enough, it might just take some of the fascination out of it for kids who would be better off studying harder and screwing around less.Lori Heinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12907163214797942192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139991622910949532006-02-15T03:20:00.000-05:002006-02-15T03:20:00.000-05:00"But in her latest Atlantic essay, I think, Flanag..."But in her latest Atlantic essay, I think, Flanagan jumps the shark."<BR/><BR/>Wrong. Flanagan has always been disgusting and dishonest. It just took you longer to notice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139971864964972032006-02-14T21:51:00.000-05:002006-02-14T21:51:00.000-05:00I honestly don't see what's so horrifying about te...I honestly don't see what's so horrifying about teens and oral sex, as long as there is reciprocity. I never had intercourse with my high school boyfriend, but we both gave orally. I never saw it as being degrading--it was something I wanted to do. I only knew one guy who expressed an aversion to giving oral sex; all of the girls in the room pretty much called him a jerk and said that they wouldn't put up with that from their boyfriends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139968499574376392006-02-14T20:54:00.000-05:002006-02-14T20:54:00.000-05:00gengwall, I don't know your daughters, but I wonde...gengwall, I don't know your daughters, but I wonder how correct their assessments are. I know what the rumor mill was like when I was a teen, and from the older-and-wiser perspective can see that "everybody knows that..." may not be what's really going on. "I and my friends do X" gets my attention a lot more than "oh, lots of girls do X".<BR/><BR/>And what they said about suburban high schools. I live in a very affluent suburban county, and we have the worst levels of alcoholism and teen drinking in the state.mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139949962572169552006-02-14T15:46:00.000-05:002006-02-14T15:46:00.000-05:00I guess if we are going swap anecdotes, I guess I ...I guess if we are going swap anecdotes, I guess I should chime in, too. About 10 years ago, when I was waiting tables, I came out at work (as a lesbian). One result of this was a huge discussion about oral sex (on women) during a particularly slow night. Even the teenage busboy was discussing his technique and asking advice on different ways of performing oral sex on his girlfriend. So, yeah, I'm not surprised the girls are getting it, too. I also would not be surprised if they were much more willing to put that down on an anonymous survey, than admit they or their friends have experimented with it.<BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139942268002486192006-02-14T13:37:00.000-05:002006-02-14T13:37:00.000-05:00As an aside, I would note that I and most of my ol...As an aside, I would note that I and most of my old high school friends, all of whom engaged in both actual and oral sex as teenagers, are now perfectly boring, married, middle-class professionals. So while I understand that it's uncomfortable and icky to think about teenagers engaging in sexual activity (especially when they're your own!), I don't know that it's particularly harmful. <BR/><BR/>Also, my highschool was suburban/rural, like gengwall described. And once I left for college, I found that previous sexual and drug/alcohol experience seemed much more prevalent among those of us who attended suburban/rural, as opposed to urban, high schools. That goes against conventional wisdom, I know. But kids who had nothing to do on weekends but have keggers in the woods apparently got into a lot more trouble than our urban counterparts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139895209625457732006-02-14T00:33:00.000-05:002006-02-14T00:33:00.000-05:00In Queen Bees and Wannabes by Rosalind Wiseman, sh...In <I>Queen Bees and Wannabes</I> by Rosalind Wiseman, she discusses this topic a bit. Basically she claims that the idea that there is an "epidemic" of oral sex is overhyped, and that if/when teen girls do engage in sexual activity, it's usually reciprocal and within the context of a committed relationship that lasts an average of a year. <BR/><BR/>I certainly wouldn't discount the lie factor either. Nobody I knew took those surveys seriously when I was in high school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139891789839958062006-02-13T23:36:00.000-05:002006-02-13T23:36:00.000-05:00So I asked my 14-yo who is a sophomore at a local ...So I asked my 14-yo who is a sophomore at a local highschool and who is on a local swim team ...<BR/><BR/>She said that she know two guys who claim to have been felated, but she said she didn't believe the girls were getting their fare share.<BR/><BR/>My take was that the boys were probably telling lies ...<BR/><BR/>Now, that is only one data point, and it is not clear how clued in my daughter is. After all, she was an intern at ABIGNETWORKINGCOMPANY at 13, so she has other things on her mind and she has a heavy load of AP an Honors classes this year as well.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I might be guilty of confirmation bias, but it seems to me that there is no epidemic of oral sex going on among teenagers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139889321031533932006-02-13T22:55:00.000-05:002006-02-13T22:55:00.000-05:00How convenient that Flanagan can make predictions ...How convenient that Flanagan can make predictions about the behavior and sexuality of daughters she doesn't have. I guess if she can invent data about teenage sexual behavior, she might as well go whole hog and invent actual teenagers.mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139873755241184752006-02-13T18:35:00.000-05:002006-02-13T18:35:00.000-05:00Thanks for your input, Katherine. Straight from t...Thanks for your input, Katherine. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Argh. Stop me before I pun again.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139873374672515772006-02-13T18:29:00.000-05:002006-02-13T18:29:00.000-05:00I graduated from high school a decade ago, but bac...I graduated from high school a decade ago, but back then, I and everyone I knew engaged in quite a lot of oral sex - giving and receiving. Granted, I ran with the "party crowd", and I guess my group probably had more sex/did more drugs than the average high schooler. But at least in my group, oral sex for both sexes was definitely not considered a big deal. But even way back then, I would NEVER have performed oral sex on a guy who wouldn't also perform it for me - and neither would any of my friends. We used to talk about this quite a lot actually. In fact, I would never do it until AFTER I'd been done first. I don't know why Flanagan thinks girls are such moronic little ninnies. I suppose there are probably some hesitant teenage girls out there that let guys pressure them because they want to feel cool, but I don't think that's the general trend. Most teenagers engage in oral sex for the same reasons adults do - because they're horny, because they want to please their partner, because they want to be reciprocated, and because it feels good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139871375334660132006-02-13T17:56:00.000-05:002006-02-13T17:56:00.000-05:00Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure why we shou...Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure why we should assume that girls are lying about their experiences as recipients of oral sex more than boys are. In addition, the survey also looked at boys' and girls' reports of <I>performing</I> oral sex.<BR/><BR/>And I do think that most of this activity probably takes place within relationships.<BR/><BR/>As for your point, Jim -- I could comment on that, but my lips are sealed.<BR/><BR/>(Pun fully intended and owned, Cobra!)Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139867947357944422006-02-13T16:59:00.000-05:002006-02-13T16:59:00.000-05:00Did anyone else pick up on the insistence that the...Did anyone else pick up on the insistence that the girls were getting no pleasure from giving oral sex. Heavens no! Not my little princess! Whatever happened to Xaviera Hollander?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139865609119530572006-02-13T16:20:00.000-05:002006-02-13T16:20:00.000-05:00I'm agnostic on the topic at hand, but way to own ...I'm agnostic on the topic at hand, but way to own those puns, Cathy!thecobrasnosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13390729947333440233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139865148339375922006-02-13T16:12:00.000-05:002006-02-13T16:12:00.000-05:00Excellent point, cunninglinguist. At 23, I'm not t...Excellent point, cunninglinguist. At 23, I'm not too old to remember vividly the myriad 'drugs and sex' questionnaires we had to fill out during 'mentorship' (Sort of a daily 'Breakfast Club' goof-off session under the guise of personal attention). We filled out the questionnaires together, out loud, trying to outdo each other. Other than the urban-legendy anecdotal evidence for this, I don't really believe in any 'oral sex epidemic', although common sense would suggest kids are definitely having it more than they were in the '50s, '60s, and '70s. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, Cathy, what I'm really curious about is what you make of the data that both genders are performing oral sex on each other equally (or lying equally on the questionnaires, as the case may be). <BR/><BR/>Does this mean that sexually active, monogamous relationships are more prevalent in today's high schools? We certainly live in a relationship-obsessed culture, and it seems like girls who feel like losers because they don't have a boyfriend are getting younger and younger. If the vast majority of the sex that's going on in high schools is between people in relationships (like it was in my high school 5 years ago), shouldn't we be applauding this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139851633549251882006-02-13T12:27:00.000-05:002006-02-13T12:27:00.000-05:00My wife, who is a teacher, discovered something ve...My wife, who is a teacher, discovered something very interesting recently.<BR/><BR/>In discussions with kids in her math class, she discovered that a great many of the kids are annoyed by those questions on the standardized testing that ask they their race, so they lie. <BR/><BR/>Of course, that means, when a significant number of respondents are lying about things on these tests, that we cannot draw any conconclusions about closing the racial gaps etc, with any certainty. Our stats are all bogus.<BR/><BR/>So, who is to say that the kids responding to the survey asking about their sexual behavior were not pissed off by adults asking them for the info that they did not lie also. You know, boys routinely lie about their conquests. Perhaps the girls were engaging in a healty dose of wishful thinking ...<BR/><BR/>Lastly, it's a great deal more pleasant after they have had a shower or bath ...<BR/><BR/>I don't imagine that a lot of teenagers go in for that level of planning ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139848355160534872006-02-13T11:32:00.000-05:002006-02-13T11:32:00.000-05:00Cathy, thanks for getting to the heart of the matt...Cathy, thanks for getting to the heart of the matter by pointing out the relevant data about reciprocity, which was precisely what I was wondering about as I read.<BR/><BR/>Apparently, it's nearly impossible for those of older generations to view these developments using any lens other than the one contructed from each generation's values and expectations. No shock there, of course.<BR/><BR/>What this suggests is that parents/adults/would-be guardians and gatekeepers are most basically appalled about today's women doing things they (if they are women) wouldn't dream of doing, or (if they are men) would tend look down on (there's that dreadful pun problem again) women doing.<BR/><BR/>Looks like among those young men and women indulging their urges, they are <I>taking turns</I> looking down on one another, as it were. Which is a real problem for the various victimization theses out there, if you ask me.<BR/><BR/>But I'm not expecting any blinks of acknowledgement to slow down the full-speed-ahead handwringing of parents and other sexual gatekeepers. Parental fears are based on visceral response, those about sex only more so. Opinions not founded on reason are (as you must know) not especially accessible TO reason. It's a problem.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that in their heart of hearts Parents strongly and viscerally wish that their daughters not grow up to be "one of <I>those</I> girls." Such visceral calculus simply does not allow for any model in which a girl might do <I>those things</I> and yet not be one of <I>those</I> girls.<BR/><BR/>--bkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139841231137210692006-02-13T09:33:00.000-05:002006-02-13T09:33:00.000-05:00"The axe came down"?? 25% and 50% at ages 15 and ..."The axe came down"?? 25% and 50% at ages 15 and 17 doesn't provoke much shock or even disapproval in me. Maybe if it were 13 and 15, but if anything only half at age 17 seems a pretty modest number. What was Ms. Flanagan doing at age 17? She even says that she wouldn't care if her kids were having oral sex in a romantic relationship, but correct me if I'm wrong the numbers cited are total, not just those outside of relationships. Did no conservatives have sex in high school or is this a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of policy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com