tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post113918756869812422..comments2024-03-29T05:31:02.923-04:00Comments on The Y Files: This quill for hireCathy Younghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-82676639547316744602011-05-17T22:53:57.896-04:002011-05-17T22:53:57.896-04:00nice share thanks a lot :)
download free pc gam...nice share thanks a lot :) <br /><br /><a href="http://www.ourpcgame.net" rel="nofollow"> download free pc games </a><br /><a href="http://www.affiliatesrating.com" rel="nofollow"> affiliate review</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16217946196345356227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139428344193906672006-02-08T14:52:00.000-05:002006-02-08T14:52:00.000-05:00Larry Bartels looks at over half a century of data...<I>Larry Bartels looks at over half a century of data and finds partisan control does make a difference in economic growth rates.</I><BR/><BR/>And now that he's done, he can enroll in a freshman logic class and learn about the post hoc fallacy. :)<BR/><BR/>Presidents have no significant effect on the economy; that's a simple fact.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139412553228459562006-02-08T10:29:00.000-05:002006-02-08T10:29:00.000-05:00from 1948 to 2001, under Republican presidents ann...<I> from 1948 to 2001, under Republican presidents annual GDP growth averaged 2.86%, under Democratic presidents, 4.08%</I><BR/><BR/>Correlation is not causation.Joanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093453920666892035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139369862906184512006-02-07T22:37:00.000-05:002006-02-07T22:37:00.000-05:00Really, professional ethics and political ideology...<I>Really, professional ethics and political ideology are quite distinct. The issue Ms. Young has raised isn't settled by saying "yeah, all those liberal columnists, or all those conservative columnists, or all those libertarian columnists--they're all of them shills. And all those who agree with me, they're honest."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think I've accused any op-ed writer of honesty, except for Cathy. :)<BR/><BR/>Yes, journalistic ethics are distinct from political ideology. The difference is that the latter actually exists. The is no "journalistic ethics" that is widely practiced -- just the occasional isolated journalist with a sense of personal ethics.<BR/><BR/>I'm not defending the people who took money. But the shock and horror at their taking the money reminds me of nothing so much as the shock that the United States would allow professional basketball players to enter the "amateur"-shyeah-right Olympics. It isn't an affront to journalistic ethics, it is an affront to the unjustified illusion that journalistic ethics exist.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139369396553481372006-02-07T22:29:00.000-05:002006-02-07T22:29:00.000-05:00Considering for instance how the economy has grown...<I>Considering for instance how the economy has grown under Democratic presidents and slowed under Republican, it's possible to be both liberal and economist</I><BR/><BR/>First of all, no honest and competent economist seriously believes the President determines how well the economy does. That's one of the many reasons Krugman deserves his current reputation as a partisan shill. Honest economists -- indeed, pretty much all economists who don't rely on a major left-wing media company for their paychecks -- blame the 2001 recession on the bursting of the tech bubble in 1999/2000. That's why the recession began before Bush even took office.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, even if you were the sort of person who mistakenly gave Presidents blame or credit for economic growth, the economy has grown under Bush and is, adjusted for inflation, stronger than it was when he took office. If you think the economy has shrunk under Bush I suggest you look at a calendar, because it isn't 2001 anymore.<BR/><BR/>Finally, the statement "the economy has grown under Democrats and slowed under Republicans" is true only if you limit your list of Presidents to Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton. Which, again, is the kind of stunt Krugman likes to pull. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139347600721844362006-02-07T16:26:00.000-05:002006-02-07T16:26:00.000-05:00Doing the latter, when one's readers believe that ...<I>Doing the latter, when one's readers believe that you are actually giving your own views, is breaking the compact with your readers.</I><BR/><BR/>But that's just it. Krugman writes columns that he, as a highly competent economist, knows are false, simply because he knows that his personal interests lie in defending the liberal position at any cost. Ditto Coulter's defense of absurd right-wing positions like "liberals are traitors".<BR/><BR/>Thus far, the people who have been found to be on the take have been espousing positions consistent with what they already believed. It isn't like anti-GM people suddenly turned pro-GM after Monsanto paid them off. What they did was sleazy, but not all that different from the typical op-ed policy of taking money to shill for a preset political position.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139345453138321022006-02-07T15:50:00.000-05:002006-02-07T15:50:00.000-05:00"This whole argument seems strange to me simply be..."This whole argument seems strange to me simply because so many op-ed writers are obviously paid shills in the first place. Does anyone seriously believe that Krugman, Coulter, Dowd, et al, are intellectually honest and fair?"<BR/><BR/>I do think that Krugman is intellectually honest (and indeed, drives conservatives crazy not because he is dishonest but because he understands a lot of conservatives' rhetorical tricks); Coulter is intellectually dishonest, and Dowd is measured by a whole different metric.<BR/><BR/>That said, the issue isn't whether commentators are fair, or whether they present different perspectives. Of course, commentary is supposed to be one-sided. But that's fundamentally different from someone who is posing as an independent voice asserting his or her own opinion but is instead writing what someone else has induced him or her to write.<BR/><BR/>Doing the latter, when one's readers believe that you are actually giving your own views, is breaking the compact with your readers.Dilanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11874762074418744847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139341413098295222006-02-07T14:43:00.000-05:002006-02-07T14:43:00.000-05:00This whole argument seems strange to me simply bec...This whole argument seems strange to me simply because so many op-ed writers are obviously paid shills in the first place. Does anyone seriously believe that Krugman, Coulter, Dowd, et al, are intellectually honest and fair?<BR/><BR/>Cathy writes:<BR/><BR/><I> We should be able, for instance, to count on a writer not to distort the facts (however convincingly she maybe do it) and not to withhold facts unfavorable to her case.</I><BR/><BR/>Maybe we should be about to count on that, but we certainly can't! Cathy is one of a handful of op-ed writers I can think of who make a serious effort to honestly present both sides of an issue. Presenting a distorted or incomplete view of the counterargument is the norm.<BR/><BR/>It is true that monetary interests can distort what a person writes. But the op-ed market today rewards politics, not honesty. Paul Krugman wouldn't earn nearly as much money if he wasn't a reliable shill for the left, nor would Coulter earn nearly as much if she wasn't reliably hard-right. Even if nobody is directly writing them a check, they know what side their bread is buttered on.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139338860950609762006-02-07T14:01:00.000-05:002006-02-07T14:01:00.000-05:00It's astounding that Cathy should have to school s...It's astounding that Cathy should have to school supposed professionals on such elementary ethical questions.<BR/><BR/>The whole payola defense is further proof, as if any were needed, that in politics ideas follow interests rather than the reverse.W.B. Reeveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11501942097348818813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139275429113591922006-02-06T20:23:00.000-05:002006-02-06T20:23:00.000-05:00Joan, do you really see no difference between a wr...<EM>Joan, do you really see no difference between a writer getting paid by a publication and by a business to which he or she gives publicity?</EM><BR/><BR/>Well, in the case of the editorial writers for the New York Times, no, I don't. That goes for a good part of the reporting staff, as well. They are every bit mouthing off opinions that are bought and paid for as you suspect Williams and company are. <BR/><BR/>OK: I admit to playing Devil's Advocate here. Yes, someone who's praising Wal-Mart in an op-ed had better disclose that Wal-Mart is signing his checks. But what if Wal-Mart is making big grants to the publication that the writer works for? Or what if Wal-Mart just promises to stock the publication in every store? That may be enough of an incentive for a publication to send down an order to talk up Wal-Mart in a good way. As Dilan already said, influence isn't always direct, or monetary.<BR/><BR/>It's great that you disclose your financial relationships, Cathy. But I'm sure that some number of your readers, learning of that prior relationship, immediately refuses to consider the points you're making, simply because you once took money from some group. <BR/><BR/>In an ideal world, all "sponsorships" should be disclosed, but also in an ideal world, people would say, "OK, now let's see what she has to say," instead of thinking, "Corporate shill! Don't have to read this crap!" That goes back to my point about knowing and trusting specific writers. <BR/><BR/>I will stand by my original point that you all seem to be mixing op-ed writers in with straight reporters, and the two are very different.Joanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093453920666892035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139268906679109582006-02-06T18:35:00.000-05:002006-02-06T18:35:00.000-05:00It seems to me that the central test is the expect...It seems to me that the central test is the expectation of the audience. I am a lawyer. When I appear in court, everyone knows I am being compensated to take a position (and indeed, am ethically required to zealously advocate the interests of my client so long as I can do so in good faith and within broadly drawn boundaries).<BR/><BR/>If the audience of a commentator actually knows or expects or even assumes that he or she is on the take, that's fine. But if the audience assumes that the author is expressing his or her personal opinion, then the pundit is being dishonest with his or her audience when the pundit gives the audience bought and paid for opinions rather than the pundit's own.<BR/><BR/>I should add one more thing. I think this problem goes beyond out-and-out bribery. There are a lot of op-ed writers and commentators and talk show hosts who mouth the talking points of one or the other party or some private organization in exchange for access, perks, and the like. These commentators also pretend that these statements are their personal opinions when in fact they are bought and paid for, just in a different currency. And they are just as much a problem.Dilanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11874762074418744847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139263495206208372006-02-06T17:04:00.000-05:002006-02-06T17:04:00.000-05:00Joan, do you really see no difference between a wr...Joan, do you really see no difference between a writer getting paid by a <I>publication</I> and by a business to which he or she gives publicity? Between, let's say, a writer praising Wal-Mart in <I>National Review</I> and receiving a check from <I>National Review</I>, and a writer praising Wal-Mart in <I>National Review</I> and receiving a check from Wal-Mart? If he or she receives a check from Wal-Mart, they can still write whatever they want, but they are ethically obligated to identify themselves as a Wal-Mart publicist.<BR/><BR/>I can say that in my own work, I am always extremely scrupulous to identify any possible conflict of interst; e.g., when I mentioned the Federalist Society in a column about Judge John Roberts (objecting to the notion that his FS membership should be held against him), I added a disclaimer that I have been a paid speaker at a number of FS events.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139262003166485022006-02-06T16:40:00.000-05:002006-02-06T16:40:00.000-05:00joan says that it's OK for op-ed writers to be on ...joan says that it's OK for op-ed writers to be on the take as long as they only shill for views that they agree with anyway. But that falls apart quickly in the real world. Let's say Monsanto pays a columnist to write in favor of genetically engineered crops. The columnist has no problem taking money for this, since he supports genetic engineering anyway. But later Monsanto decides that they want him to write that global warming is a myth, and now the writer has a problem: he doesn't believe that. But the company insists on it, and since the writer has bills to pay he decides to take the money and write what they want.<BR/><BR/>Is this farfetched?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139257915444600562006-02-06T15:31:00.000-05:002006-02-06T15:31:00.000-05:00Cathy says, It's an "ad hominem" argument to say ...Cathy says, <EM> It's an "ad hominem" argument to say that a journalist is tainted by taking money from those about whom he writes favorably?</EM><BR/><BR/>I don't think it's splitting hairs to mark the distinction between <EM>reporters</EM> and <EM>op-ed columnists</EM>. Neither one should distort facts or omit information that is pertinent to their subject at hand. But a reporter "on the take" is a much bigger problem than an op-ed writer. <BR/><BR/>A reporter is supposed to be giving "just the facts," and if he constructs his stories to benefit whoever is paying him off, that's unlikely to be suspected or found out. <BR/><BR/>An op-ed columnist is paid for <EM>opinions</EM>, not straight reporting. I would be horrified to find any op-ed writer shilling a position he does <EM>not</EM> believe in because he was bought off. What we're seeing in all these cases, though, is people sponsored by corporations (or government administrations) to talk about stuff they'd be saying anyway. <BR/><BR/>Take the Armstrong Williams business. Do you really believe that Williams <EM>lied</EM> in his editorials, that he was advocating views he himself does not believe in? I don't. I don't find covering a topic at the request of a sponsor any more disturbing than writing according to an editorial calendar. It's not even as if Williams somehow ripped off his syndicate, who are free to distribute his column or not.<BR/><BR/>By your reasoning, Cathy, no one should ever be paid by anyone for writing an opinion piece. You get paid by the Globe, aren't you part of their corporate machine, doesn't that inform your opinions and determine what you write about?<BR/><BR/><EM>Of course it doesn't!</EM> (Or if it does, you're going about kowtowing to your corporate masters line in a very strange way.)<BR/><BR/>What's the difference, say, if Jonah Goldberg gets paid by National Review or by the Heritage Foundation or even by Wal-Mart? Are his views and opinions automatically suspect because he's drawing a salary from a Right-wing organization? Wait -- to a lot of people, the answer to that question is <EM>yes</EM>, just as to a bunch of other people, everything that Janeane Garafolo and Al Franken say is meaningless because they're paid by Air America. <BR/><BR/>Wait, again -- you want to draw a distinction between media companies and other corporations? Why should we, if getting paid has such a corrupting influence? Media corporations have agendas to advance, too.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line for me is, there are a number of writers I trust, and I don't care who pays them. If it's found that a writer lied or misrepresented something solely to benefit his employer, then his credibility will be destroyed, as will his career. Op-ed writers need to be honest about their opinions and the facts that inform them. Obvious shilling will out a writer with or without financial disclosures.Joanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093453920666892035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1139244066888778202006-02-06T11:41:00.000-05:002006-02-06T11:41:00.000-05:00Cathy writes, " . . . journalistic ethics are alre...Cathy writes, " . . . journalistic ethics are already in a pretty sorry state. Intellectual honesty and fairness are not highly prized virtues in opinion writing these days . . . ."<BR/><BR/>In a similar vein, Richard John Neuhaus wrote the following a couple weeks ago:<BR/><BR/>"As you might imagine, I spend a good deal of time talking with reporters. I usually don’t mind it. It comes with the territory. With notable exceptions, reporters are people of good will working hard to write a story that will please their editors. It is true that they are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer. These days most of them have gone to journalism school, or j-school, as it is called. In intellectual rankings at universities, journalism is just a notch above education, which is, unfortunately, at the bottom."<BR/><BR/>A few paragraphs later, he addresses the question of media bias thusly: "I have been led to embrace something like an Occam’s razor with respect to journalistic distortions: Do not multiply explanations when ignorance will suffice."<BR/><BR/><BR/>This doesn't excuse paid shilling, of course, but it does further Cathy's argument that journalists are often flunkies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com