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(Even ...But Dougie does it <I>well</I>.<BR/><BR/>Happy happy to all! (Even you dougie)...Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135492607914899672005-12-25T01:36:00.000-05:002005-12-25T01:36:00.000-05:00Doug: much appreciated.Doug: much appreciated.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135488631565533172005-12-25T00:30:00.000-05:002005-12-25T00:30:00.000-05:00You got it.You got it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135483935512868122005-12-24T23:12:00.000-05:002005-12-24T23:12:00.000-05:00Doug: unlike John Cole, I don't look kindly upon t...Doug: unlike John Cole, I don't look kindly upon trolling on this site. I respectfully ask you to lay off.<BR/><BR/>(FYI to everyone, DougJ posts at BaloonJuice and other sites impersonating a rabid right-winger.)Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135483337546574652005-12-24T23:02:00.000-05:002005-12-24T23:02:00.000-05:00This is another outrage. Why does the left get to ...This is another outrage. Why does the left get to define what science is? This is supposed to be a Democracy. <BR/><BR/>Faith-based approaches are increasinly successful: in medicine, in economics, in foreign policy. Why not in science too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135444224066011562005-12-24T12:10:00.000-05:002005-12-24T12:10:00.000-05:00beAzl, actually I linked to Richard's blog even be...beAzl, actually I linked to Richard's blog even before I knew he was involved in the ID dispute, because I was interested in his commentary on other issues.<BR/><BR/>I don't recall Richard ever making statements of these kind on his website, though I know his manner can be rather blunt sometimes. And for the record, I find this sort of humor pretty offensive.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135420155685143312005-12-24T05:29:00.000-05:002005-12-24T05:29:00.000-05:00beazel, I don't know that Cathy and I are allies i...beazel, I don't know that Cathy and I are allies in a fight against ID. I'm not involved in any such fight, as I've yet to lift a finger in it. I don't consider blog commentary a form of activism. And while Cathy may find some of things I write useful, you shouldn't take it on yourself to believe that she endorses all of my ideas.<BR/><BR/>You seem upset that I suggest burning at the stake as a penalty for heretical thought. I can appreciate your delicate sensibilities, but I'm a bit of a traditionalist with a great deal of respect for our religious heritage, so please don't attack my faith.<BR/><BR/>And speaking of faith, I happened to read part of Genesis today, where God gives man dominion over various creatures including fishes, fowl, and cattle. It's a clever God who could include cattle in that list, as they didn't exist until domesticated in India some 10,000 years ago, long after man's first appearance on the Earth. I take that as a clue that the Big Fella is an evolutionist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135406437472214362005-12-24T01:40:00.000-05:002005-12-24T01:40:00.000-05:00Why doesn't the government just sterilize Creation...Why doesn't the government just sterilize Creationists. Problem solved. For the next generation at least.ohmygodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00242329249743718683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135395185207396292005-12-23T22:33:00.000-05:002005-12-23T22:33:00.000-05:00the creation story in GenesisThere are two creatio...<I>the creation story in Genesis</I><BR/><BR/>There are two creation stories in Genesis as reader_i_am notes.<BR/><BR/><I> Richard, I didn't read Judge Jones' ruling, and I wasn't commenting on it (except once in a tangential way)</I><BR/><BR/>You most certainly commented on it, in your very first post.mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135387534729906292005-12-23T20:25:00.000-05:002005-12-23T20:25:00.000-05:00With regard to whether the creation story in Genes...With regard to whether the creation story in Genesis was meant to be literal rather than metaphorical or allegorical:<BR/><BR/>Who knows what the "original" teller (and note that I mindfully chose the word "teller") had in mind? <BR/><BR/>The fact is that Genesis contains not one, but two, recountings of the creation, and they differ. So at least those who could read have known there that there are two differing accounts--differing interpretations?--contained within that book of the Bible for hundreds and hundreds of years. That's based on a "plain reading of the text" alone.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I know some of the responses to that (chief would be that any seeming contradictions can be chalked up only to human beings' inability to reconcile them). But I think that would take us far OT.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I am a believer. The evolution vs. creation debate has never, from a personal faith standpoint, ever engaged me. From my personal religious viewpoint, I embrace certain elements of the ID theory--that is, that all of creation is a reflection of the awesome mind and power of God. But as to the specifics, I leave that up to God. Evolution in and of itself is no contradiction to me. And so I don't exercised about it in terms of my faith.<BR/><BR/>From a public policy standpoint as relates to public school, however, it does matter to me. ID is simply not science and shouldn't be taught as such, for all the reasons already covered in this thread.reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135377229623688432005-12-23T17:33:00.000-05:002005-12-23T17:33:00.000-05:00Surely no self-respecting libertarian believes tha...<I> Surely no self-respecting libertarian believes that parental status endows people with the right to permanently reduce the autonomy of their offspring by warping their minds.</I><BR/><BR/>Untrue. This self-respecting libertarian believes that the state has no right to interefere with a parent "warping the mind" of their offspring. <BR/><BR/>Statism (by both the right and left) is ugliest when it wraps itself in protecting "the children" as though sentimentality substitues for sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135367259156981492005-12-23T14:47:00.000-05:002005-12-23T14:47:00.000-05:00Russell says: Richard, when you refer to "some wac...Russell says: <I>Richard, when you refer to "some wackjob interpretation of Genesis," you're talking about the traditional, obvious interpretation, the one that emerges from a plain reading of the text, the one that the author(s) probably meant.</I><BR/><BR/>Probably not, as people who lived in the Mid-East 3000 years ago weren't obviously stupid. Some guy spun a yarn, and he knew he was spinning a yarn. If a few wackos later on took the yarn to heart, that's their problem.<BR/><BR/>Your complaint about government schools accommodating extreme religious viewpoints isn't really the indictment of "statism" that you'd hoped to make. All social institutions, public and private, face the challenge of dealing with irrationality, religious and otherwise. Irrational parents hope to pass their irrationality on their children, a harmful practice that has to be curbed and controlled for the sake of all of us.<BR/><BR/>Most people are, face it, not too bright, so the libertarian fiction that they should be allowed all the autonomy in the world is fanciful at best.<BR/><BR/>And there's an inherent conflict between the autonomy of parents and that of children. Surely no self-respecting libertarian believes that parental status endows people with the right to permanently reduce the autonomy of their offspring by warping their minds.<BR/><BR/>So the state has to step in and protect children from the consequences of their parents' irrational beliefs, religious and otherwise, like Plato's Guardians. That's life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135364909141023842005-12-23T14:08:00.000-05:002005-12-23T14:08:00.000-05:00I think the issue with the establishment clause an...I think the issue with the establishment clause and education is not funding, but with the setting up and administering the apparatus. For example, private colleges still receive tax breaks from the government and are allowed to endorse religion. I don't think the establishment clause prohibits the public funding of orginizations that endorse a specific religious viewpoint. I think the establishment clause prohibits a government institution endorsing a specific religous viewpoint.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135357596202457972005-12-23T12:06:00.000-05:002005-12-23T12:06:00.000-05:00Well, I'm no expert on Catholic doctrine, but I th...<I>Well, I'm no expert on Catholic doctrine, but I think the idea is that the bread and wine somehow become the blood and body of Christ in a methaphysical sense (surely the people taking communion know they aren't tasting actual flesh and blood).</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not an "expert" in the legal sense, but Wikipedia confirms what I learned - transsubstantiation happens when the priest consecrates the wine and bread. I'm sure there are dogmatic explanations for why the altered substances retain their original form, but I'm confident a scientist would assert that the transsubstantiated material was in fact the same substance. <BR/><BR/>The point is, religion teaches stuff at odds with the scientific method and makes quasi-scientific claims about it - creationism seems about the same as transsubstantiation to me. If the government gets to decide which "imaginary friends" are real enough to fund through vouchers, there are going to be endless establishment problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135353731209145392005-12-23T11:02:00.000-05:002005-12-23T11:02:00.000-05:00Should taxpayer money be used to subsidize (Cathol...<I>Should taxpayer money be used to subsidize (Catholic) schools that teach that the literal body and blood of JC is consumed in communion (assuming spectral analysis shows it to be wine and unleavened bread)? </I><BR/><BR/>Well, I'm no expert on Catholic doctrine, but I think the idea is that the bread and wine somehow become the blood and body of Christ in a methaphysical sense (surely the people taking communion know they aren't tasting actual flesh and blood). So I don't see how spectral analysis could disprove it, especially if the transsubtantiation takes place at the point of swallowing.<BR/><BR/>In this case, we're talking about a religious claim of a miracle or a supernatural process which I don't think science can prove or disprove.<BR/><BR/>If a Catholic school was teaching that transsubstantiation was proven by scientific analysis, then I'd say they should not only not get vouchers, but their students should not get their science classes counted for credit for university admissions, because they're obviously teaching pseudo-science.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135345936283946012005-12-23T08:52:00.000-05:002005-12-23T08:52:00.000-05:00However, if there is to be a voucher system, I don...<I>However, if there is to be a voucher system, I don't think that taxpayer money should be used to subsidize schools that teach ID as science.</I><BR/><BR/>Should taxpayer money be used to subsidize (Catholic) schools that teach that the literal body and blood of JC is consumed in communion (assuming spectral analysis shows it to be wine and unleavened bread)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135318593974070762005-12-23T01:16:00.000-05:002005-12-23T01:16:00.000-05:00Okay, great, the forces of science and reason won ...<I>Okay, great, the forces of science and reason won a battle against the Jesus freaks</I><BR/><BR/>No, the forces of maintaining a religiously neutral State won a battle against the people who go against the word of their own Bible to push an egotistical strain of faith.mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135311797253917142005-12-22T23:23:00.000-05:002005-12-22T23:23:00.000-05:00Russell- It's another thing for it to promote a vi...Russell- <I>It's another thing for it to promote a viewpoint that is directly contrary to a religious doctrine.</I><BR/><BR/>There is nothing intrinsically bad about a government promoting a viewpoint that contradicts a religious viewpoint. Islamic fundamentalism abhorrs democracy, so should we feel bad by endorsing a viewpoint that contradicts a religous viewpoint?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135310956511445382005-12-22T23:09:00.000-05:002005-12-22T23:09:00.000-05:00So the government is taking a position on a religi...<I>So the government is taking a position on a religious matter.</I><BR/><BR/>Only indirectly. They are taking a position on a matter of fact, and it just so happens that the religous belief feels that the fact is not really a fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135309654226028372005-12-22T22:47:00.000-05:002005-12-22T22:47:00.000-05:00Cathy,It's one thing for a government to protect p...Cathy,<BR/><BR/>It's one thing for a government to protect people's rights and refrain from obeying a religion's dictates. It's another thing for it to promote a viewpoint that is directly contrary to a religious doctrine. But government will inevitably do that whenever it gets in the business of promoting viewpoints, because there are a lot of religions and they hold positions on all kinds of issues. That's why public schooling doesn't sit well with the separation of church and state.<BR/><BR/>Suppose Congress wanted to issue a proclamation declaring that the book of Genesis is false. Do you think they should be able to do that? If not, why not? And how would that be different in principle from government saying so through its schools?<BR/><BR/>You wrote, "Furthermore, I don't think even total privatization of education would solve the problem; ID proponents would start suing universities for refusing to give credit for 'science courses' to students from fundamentalist Christian schools who've taken creationist 'biology' classes."<BR/><BR/>Since university accreditation would be done by private institutions who would have the right to accredit whoever they want using any standards they want, I don't see what legal leg the ID proponents would have to stand on.Russell Hannekenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09272592291829934897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135307766059858042005-12-22T22:16:00.000-05:002005-12-22T22:16:00.000-05:00Richard wrote, "science doesn't have anything to s...Richard wrote, "science doesn't have anything to say about Genesis and neither endorses it or opposes it."<BR/><BR/>Texts on evolutionary biology don't normally say, "Genesis is wrong," but that is a direct and obvious implication of what they do say.<BR/><BR/>Richard wrote, "If there's a conflict between science and some wackjob interpretation of Genesis the conflict falls solely on the shoulders of the wackjob, not science."<BR/><BR/>Richard, when you refer to "some wackjob interpretation of Genesis," you're talking about the traditional, obvious interpretation, the one that emerges from a plain reading of the text, the one that the author(s) probably meant.<BR/><BR/>If you're saying that the author(s) of Genesis never meant it to be interpreted literally, and that believers for thousands of years have gotten it all wrong, that's ridiculous. The believers didn't get Genesis wrong. Genesis itself is wrong. That's inconvenient for you to acknowledge, because you want to pretend that Genesis doesn't conflict with evolution. But it's true.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, whether a literal reading of Genesis is wackjob or not, that reading <I>is</I> part of some religious traditions. So evolution does conflict with some religions, whether you think those religions are wackjob or not, and whether you like it or not.<BR/><BR/>I'll let the rest of your post stand without a response.Russell Hannekenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09272592291829934897noreply@blogger.com