tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post113415634156558416..comments2024-03-28T03:19:40.014-04:00Comments on The Y Files: Andrew Sullivan on torture, and moreCathy Younghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-57607856517237283092011-11-25T21:04:03.344-05:002011-11-25T21:04:03.344-05:00nice buddy
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I not saying it's <I>not</I>, mind, and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just saying that it's an element of post-Enlightenment Western culture of which I was wholly unware.<BR/><BR/>I mean, from my perspective -- and my perspective is not really Western, I must admit -- I think the use of the rod is preferable to and more civilised than incarceration, particularly incarceration in the kinds of circumstances we (in the US) incarcerate people. When I read about that Singapore caning case, a few years ago (for graffiti, I think), my thought was that Singapore came off as rather superior. It's always fascinating for me to discover these ways my own cultural understandings diverge -- sometimes dramatically -- from those of the shared public culture (the European culture) of the US.Balfegorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08012196656096263507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134560290047631012005-12-14T06:38:00.000-05:002005-12-14T06:38:00.000-05:00...it's beyond the pale for the U.S. to use delibe...<I>...it's beyond the pale for the U.S. to use deliberate affronts to someone's religious taboos in order to exert psychological pressure</I><BR/><BR/>I would like to announce the formation of the First International Church of Freedom. As the founding member and Pope for life, I'd like to inform you of our basic tenents. <BR/><BR/>The International Church of Freedom holds sacred the basic need for all worshippers to live in complete freedom without any restrictions placed on them by outside persons. <BR/><BR/>The International Church of Freedom requires that all worshippers pray 16 times a day in a field of daisies (clover if no daisies are available) with no form of barricade or other structure that may obstruct the view of god's creation.<BR/><BR/>The International Church of Freedom requires all worshippers make a journey at least once a month to the living quarters of the Pope for life for the monthly Feast of Good Times. <BR/><BR/>The International Church of Freedom requires all worshippers of the faith to prepare all food (organic) as instructed in the exclusive International Church of Freedom Cookbook for Believers available at your local bookstore for $19.95.<BR/><BR/>The International Church of Freedom demands that all followers follow these instructions as passed down by the great lord almighty or they will go straight to hell. Right after years and years of great psychological distress. <BR/><BR/>I trust that all governments of the world will provide the International Church of Freedom and its followers the same respect given to all faiths.BBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06396930020494095550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134502022167600892005-12-13T14:27:00.000-05:002005-12-13T14:27:00.000-05:00Well, I'm not sure what audience you're talking ab...Well, I'm not sure what audience you're talking about, exactly. It seems to me that anyone who could be pushed from the "friendly/neutral" column to the "enemy" column on the basis of something as trivial as this was inevitably going to be our enemy anyway. In all but a few cases, they presumably already were.<BR/><BR/>Now, it is true that a goal of ours is to convince those people to be non-hostile to us. But that's not going to be possible until <B>after</B> they change their attitudes towards things like Jews and women. Because, well, we're pro-Jew and pro-woman here.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134462380892723682005-12-13T03:26:00.000-05:002005-12-13T03:26:00.000-05:00You and I aren't exactly the audience I was thinki...You and I aren't exactly the audience I was thinking about.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134437741485689632005-12-12T20:35:00.000-05:002005-12-12T20:35:00.000-05:00My thought still stands though: these things will ...<I>My thought still stands though: these things will obviously be provocative in a PR sense (especially the blood thing - that's just gross. Not my best argument ever, but still...) while not neccesarily providing any benefit. So why even go there?</I><BR/><BR/>I can't really answer your question because I don't think those things are provocative. My reaction when I heard about the blood and flag incidents was "so?". Neither incident is, in my opinion, something that would give a reasonable person a negative opinion of the USA. Especially the flag thing.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134429515466804712005-12-12T18:18:00.000-05:002005-12-12T18:18:00.000-05:00Anon,I don't think Abu Gharib constituted torture....Anon,<BR/><BR/><I>I don't think Abu Gharib constituted torture. Mistreatment, yes. But torture? No.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I suppose you could be correct, but that's not exactly probabtive. Was the 'gaypiling' intended to be an information gathering technique or just sport?<BR/><BR/>WRB, you could be right, I could be conflating <I>Padilla</I> 'enemy combatant' stuff with out and out terrorists WRT Geneva conventions. I'll look into that when I get home from work tonight.<BR/><BR/>Rev,<BR/><BR/>An interesting point. My thought still stands though: these things will obviously be provocative in a PR sense (especially the blood thing - that's just <I>gross</I>. Not my best argument ever, but still...) while not neccesarily providing any benefit. So why even go there?<BR/><BR/>An interesting aside in this debate is that,within the realm of 'coercive techniques' we are discussing, there is a direct relationship between the 'torture-likeness' of a technique and its likely effectiveness. If that makes sense.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134419494643137162005-12-12T15:31:00.000-05:002005-12-12T15:31:00.000-05:00What I would like to know is this:The opponents of...What I would like to know is this:<BR/><BR/>The opponents of torture --- what IS torture? <BR/><BR/>An extremely open-ended torture definition could be used in ways nobody imagined.<BR/><BR/>After all, did anybody expect the Americans with Disabilities Act to be so utterly abused? How about Title IX? <BR/><BR/>Nobody likes to see rampant mistreatment of anybody.<BR/><BR/>But, I don't trust the critics of torture to be the ones who can define it.<BR/><BR/>I don't think Abu Gharib constituted torture. Mistreatment, yes. But torture? No.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134419123369319312005-12-12T15:25:00.000-05:002005-12-12T15:25:00.000-05:00Assuming arguendo that such things are torture, do...<I>Assuming arguendo that such things are torture, do they work faster than 'traditional' interrogation techniques "for breaking people's resistance to questioning?" I guess I'm making the same "why even go there" point. Again.</I><BR/><BR/>My understanding is that they ARE the traditional interrogation techniques. Well, not the blood/flag things specifically, because traditionally most of the people we interrogate aren't woman-hating antisemites, but traditional interrogation methods center around making the subject feel helpless, confused, and alone.<BR/><BR/>Now, a religious fanatic might feel that he's never really alone because he can always talk to God. But if you screw with his mind so that he feels he can't even do that -- because he's unclean -- then maybe he really does feel alone. Similarly, being made to wear an Israeli flag communicates to the prisoner, in a very direct way, that he is helpless in the face of those he considers his mortal enemies.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134411494799076042005-12-12T13:18:00.000-05:002005-12-12T13:18:00.000-05:00Pooh... how the heck can you say I'm wrong on the ...Pooh... how the heck can you say I'm wrong on the Geneva Convention issue??? I mean... I'm clearly right... just read the damn thing and you'll see it clearly doesn't apply to terrorists who wear no uniform and fight for no nation. Whether you "like" it or not, that's the reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134402959384045442005-12-12T10:55:00.000-05:002005-12-12T10:55:00.000-05:00The notion that something cannot be "torture" if i...The notion that something cannot be "torture" if it sometimes used in consensual hazing strikes me as severely misguided.<BR/><BR/>Several years ago, there was a hazing scandal in the U.S. military (Air Force, I believe? or one of the academies?) in which young men had their badges pinned to the skin on their chests and then ripped off, tearing out a chunk of flesh and skin. The videos showed them screaming in agony while this was done. <BR/><BR/>The young men in the video voluntarily submitted to this hazing ritual, probably out of a combination of group loyalty and misguided machismo. But is there a single person who would not regard this as "torture" if practiced on a captive?Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134402176132617002005-12-12T10:42:00.000-05:002005-12-12T10:42:00.000-05:00WRT flag/blood.This argument has to sell, one way ...WRT flag/blood.<BR/><BR/>This argument has to sell, one way or another, in the realm of normal people.<BR/><BR/>That means the flag/blood issue will be a major handicap. Normal people won't be bothered by it because they're normal.<BR/><BR/>It will be seen either as a serious brain-glitch or as an attempt to haul in non-issues in order to punch up the numbers, a tactic the advocacy folks are always doing and which normal people normally look for.<BR/><BR/>The consent issue having to do with whether something seen in fraternity hazing is torture or not is bogus, as well. The question is whether it amounts to torture. Does it fire up the pain receptors or not? Keep in mind that the detainee in question can end the whole thing by talking.<BR/><BR/>It is nice that Roosevelt did not reciprocate by ordering torture. He didn't have to. It was being done, anyway. So he could remain above the issue. The difference was that the US interrogators beat up POWs to get info. Japanese tortured for the fun of it.<BR/><BR/>This argument is going to have to become a lot more disciplined before it's ready for Broadway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134399935644325402005-12-12T10:05:00.000-05:002005-12-12T10:05:00.000-05:00"Seriously, I don't know about the flag thing, but..."Seriously, I don't know about the flag thing, but my understanding is that to a devout Muslim, if he has come in contact with menstrual blood, he is "unclean" and unless he has performed ritual ablutions he cannot pray to God."<BR/><BR/>Is the technique involving fake menstrual blood any more humane because the "blood" isn't actually real? Either way, the prisoner will think he's "unclean" and won't be able to pray to God. What difference does it make whether or not the blood is real? The ends are the same. Is it simply more civil to use fake blood?<BR/><BR/>This technique seems to say that we don't actually disrespect the prisoner's religious beliefs; we just make the prisoner think we do. The effect on the prisoner is the same whether or not the blood is real. Is the message this technique sends to the world (especially the Muslim world) that much better just because the blood is fake?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134376819894197022005-12-12T03:40:00.000-05:002005-12-12T03:40:00.000-05:00Hrm, thanks for that Rev. Assuming arguendo that s...Hrm, thanks for that Rev. <BR/><BR/>Assuming arguendo that such things <I>are</I> torture, do they work faster than 'traditional' interrogation techniques "for breaking people's resistance to questioning?" I guess I'm making the same "why even go there" point. Again.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134373971004876692005-12-12T02:52:00.000-05:002005-12-12T02:52:00.000-05:00The point of tactics like the blood/flag stuff is ...The point of tactics like the blood/flag stuff is keep the subject confused, alienated, off-balance, etc. It is a proven (but very slow) tactic for breaking people's resistance to questioning.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134335736650383112005-12-11T16:15:00.000-05:002005-12-11T16:15:00.000-05:00The Israeli flag/menstrual blood thing is pointles...<I>The Israeli flag/menstrual blood thing is pointless. Is it torture or is it not? Who cares, how will it possibly be useful in extracting information? It's not as if the terrorists are vampires and those items are garlic.</I><BR/><BR/>LOL -- good analogy there, pooh!<BR/><BR/>Are you sure? ;)<BR/><BR/>Seriously, I don't know about the flag thing, but my understanding is that to a devout Muslim, if he has come in contact with menstrual blood, he is "unclean" and unless he has performed ritual ablutions he cannot pray to God.<BR/><BR/>So it's a pretty major thing, psychologically.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134335342687715882005-12-11T16:09:00.000-05:002005-12-11T16:09:00.000-05:00A few thoughtsThe Israeli flag/menstrual blood thi...A few thoughts<BR/><BR/>The Israeli flag/menstrual blood thing is pointless. Is it torture or is it not? Who cares, how will it possibly be useful in extracting information? It's not as if the terrorists are vampires and those items are garlic.<BR/><BR/>That leads me to a bigger question which has simply not been answered: leaving the moral dimension aside for the moment (which is sad that we even have to, but ships do sail...), is there any evidence that torture is a net positive: does the actionable information gleaned outweigh the false information (see Curveball) and extreme negative PR involved? I'm highly skeptical. In the context of WoT, the PR effect has been massive. Both on the insurgency and here in the U.S. How much of the vehemance of the anti-war people comes from this? I think a fair amount. And the bizarre double talk employed by the administration does nothing but sap credibility, home and abroad. In short, I think its a strategic blunder of the highest order.<BR/><BR/>Cobra, you might win slippery slope of the year with that one, though I think you spoke partially in jest.<BR/><BR/>Synova, I think that the use of waterboarding in training is a red herring. First, the recruit consents. Second, intent matters.<BR/><BR/>Wm. R Barker, I disagree on the Geneva Convention point strongly, the Yoo memos rely on a, forgive the inevitable pun, tortured interpretation of both the practice itself and the reach of the Convention. (but who cares? Int'l Law is completely salutory in any case. Rule of Law requires not just 'law' but also a credible enforcement mechanism to ensure the 'rule')Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134332975682044482005-12-11T15:29:00.000-05:002005-12-11T15:29:00.000-05:00LOL, Revenant! point taken.LOL, Revenant! point taken.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134332804697830992005-12-11T15:26:00.000-05:002005-12-11T15:26:00.000-05:00the slippery slope to lawlessness is a lot less sl...<I>the slippery slope to lawlessness is a lot less slippery when you clearly define "legal" and "illegal" and firmly punish only the former</I><BR/><BR/>D'oh! I meant "the latter", of course. I don't imagine firmly punishing everyone who obeys the law would help matters one little bit. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134331000310488412005-12-11T14:56:00.000-05:002005-12-11T14:56:00.000-05:00Basically... I'm with Krauthammer.First... the obv...Basically... I'm with Krauthammer.<BR/><BR/>First... the obvious: Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention. Period. Nor should they be.<BR/><BR/>Second... feces happens. Yeah, just as innocent people are sometimes found guilty in a court of law, whether we're talking coercive interrogation methods or old fashioned torture sometime, somewhere, somehow, innocents will be mistakenly treated as terrorists. I'm not downplaying the moral and ethical horror of this reality... I'm just accepting that this is an inevitable reality.<BR/><BR/>Third... my definition of torture - and Krauthammer's - no doubt differs from your definition (Cathy) and certainly from Andrew Sullivan's. But hey... let's go straight to "real" torture for the sake of argument and I still believe that if the CIA has to chop a terrorist to pieces bit by bit in order to stop a major terrorist attack... so be it.<BR/><BR/>Forth... many of our enemies - those who Cathy describes as "monsters" - DO DESERVE TORTURE!<BR/><BR/>Do I take the slippery slope argument lightly? No. It's a real concern. Am I slightly perplexed at the "make it against the law but allow the law to be broken sometimes" suggestion? Yep. At the same time, what those who believe in such an argument are calling for is accountability. I'm all for accountability, so maybe there we share a bit of common ground.<BR/><BR/>* Revenant... good points as usual!<BR/><BR/>* Tom... as for the "ticking time bomb scenario," if it had happened do you really think we'd necessarily know about it? I tend to doubt it. It's the logic of the scenario that I accept.<BR/><BR/>* Cobrasnose... yep... I'm pretty much with you. Andrew Sullivan is a smart guy. He's the one who turned me on to Cathy's blog! But while I still read him and wish him well, he has gone overboard on several issues over the past year and a half or so and it's getting worse.<BR/><BR/>* Synova... good points.<BR/><BR/>Anyway... I'm not really out to change anyone's mind, nor am I trying to "back up" my contentions in this post. Simply... I'm just reacting to Cathy's original post and what others have said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134325454457761012005-12-11T13:24:00.000-05:002005-12-11T13:24:00.000-05:00cobra, I agree that it's a stretch to regard relig...cobra, I agree that it's a stretch to regard religious taboo-violation as "torture," and I do think it's rather ironic that, in the name of liberalism, we are now expected to make accommodations for the religiously based belief that women are unclean.<BR/><BR/>I think, however, that defining torture as only something that causes either death or lasting physical harm is much too narrow; it's certainly not the language used in law.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I agree that moral equivalency between the Saddam Hussein regime and the US is ridiculous. I don't think we should be held to standards of perfection. But I don't think the McCaine bill does that, either. Our laws should follow the basic standards for civilized conduct. Human beings will sometimes fall short of that standard. That doesn't mean the law should be changed.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134320040261264392005-12-11T11:54:00.000-05:002005-12-11T11:54:00.000-05:00Hi, Cathy, and thanks for the considered response....Hi, Cathy, and thanks for the considered response. But. <BR/><BR/><I>...it's beyond the pale for the U.S. to use deliberate affronts to someone's religious taboos in order to exert psychological pressure</I><BR/><BR/>If that is torture, a mild form of it is practiced upon religious believers on a regular basis in the US with the aim of persuading a person that (insert name of faith here) is stupid, racist, homophobic, etc. and should be abandoned. No, the typical Christian isn't plucked off the street and forced to desecrate a crucifix, but popular and high culture is littered with blasphemous images that serve little purpose other than to offend them and demean their deeply held faith. Is this not psychological pressure? <BR/><BR/>Which is not to say believers in this nation should be protected by the state. Far from it. But it does leave me cold to practices such as US personnel being required to handle a Koran with gloves and implicitly buying into the captives’ idea that they are intrinsically unclean, and unimpressed with the motives behind deadly riots over rumors of mistreatment over a mass produced book. To treat “someone’s religion” (read: Islam) with respect is good manners, good policy, and good PR. To disrespect it, however, doesn’t qualify as torture in my admittedly non-holy book, and the ability to respond without violence to religious affronts is an excellent sign of a healthy society. <BR/><BR/><I>"we're better than the Iraqis/the Soviets/the Cubans" etc. is really not, I think, the standard we should measure ourselves by.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree to the point that we should not take pride in a bare minimum of civil practice over dictatorships. But we’re not talking a bare minimum here—we’re talking about the difference between waterboarding (an awful thing to endure) and sawing the head off of a screaming human being. You don’t have to defend the current US policy on torture in order to recognize that it is <I>immeasurably</I> better than that of our enemies (and I’ll say it again, most of our allies), and that the distinction is a vital one. That distinction is blurred by the likes of Sullivan and Edward “Abu Ghraib has opened under new management” Kennedy to the effect that the concept of torture is defined down to the point that mistreatment of a book or gross activity with red ink is grotesquely made equivalent to rape, electrocution, dismemberment, etc. <BR/><BR/>Detainee abuse that results in death and severe and lasting physical harm is already forbidden by the government, and those who engage in those atrocities are identified and punished as a matter of policy. It’s not a perfect policy by any means, but as Voltaire famously noted, perfection is the enemy of the good. When Sullivan, for example, holds the US and its allies to an ideal standard, the net effect is to (as synova noted) harden sympathetic, civilized people against his arguments.thecobrasnosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13390729947333440233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134292742725592192005-12-11T04:19:00.000-05:002005-12-11T04:19:00.000-05:00which, I still maintain, is an attitude that runs ...<I>which, I still maintain, is an attitude that runs counter to the principle of holding terrorists fully accountable for their acts</I><BR/><BR/>"Holding them fully accountable for their acts" pretty much involves them dying in screaming agony, in my humble opinion. Of course, our system doesn't allow cruel and unusual punishments, so we have to settle for simple death instead. But if we can put the person to good use before killing them, well, so much the better.<BR/><BR/><I>Actually, Sullivan says that the torturers will need to be either punished or pardoned</I><BR/><BR/>But a pardon would still involve the person being prosecuted, losing a substantial degree of freedom for months or years, plus large sums of money spent on lawyers -- and, in the end, no guarantee that the pardon will be forthcoming. So it's still a person sacrificing himself so Andrew can sleep better at night.<BR/><BR/><I>It's that, once you've made it part of the rules that torture is okay in an emergency, you're at a starting point much closer to approval of torture under other circumstances, including a very broadly defined "emergency."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, we're retreading the same ground here, but I think history shows that the slippery slope to lawlessness is a lot less slippery when you clearly define "legal" and "illegal" and firmly punish only the former than it is when you tacitly acknowledge that you'll let lawbreaking slide so long as its being done for "really important reasons". Sullivan's position is that latter -- it sends a message to the CIA, military, et al, to go ahead and break the law when its important. We should not write our laws under the assumption that the government won't be bothering to obey them.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.com