tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post113399367354239297..comments2024-03-29T05:31:02.923-04:00Comments on The Y Files: Unhinged, left and rightCathy Younghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comBlogger130125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-58701943759338757702011-05-17T23:11:45.453-04:002011-05-17T23:11:45.453-04:00nice share thanks a lot :)
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Specifically, on Dec 11th she quoted Howard Dean and then characterized what he said as "eliminationist rhetoric". Quoting Cathy quoting Dean:<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Speaking about election reform, he said it is unconscionable for voters to have to stand in lengthy lines at polling places given the demands of work and family. "Republicans," he said, "I guess can do that because a lot of them have never made an honest living in their lives."<BR/><BR/>Or this, also from Dean:<BR/><BR/>"This is a struggle between good and evil and we're the good?"<BR/><BR/>Or maybe it's not "eliminationist rhetoric" if you think it's true?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>I really don't see how either of these quotes is even remotely "eliminationist rhetoric".<BR/><BR/>The first quote criticizes republicans, but it does not in any way advocate any kind of retribution, much less suggest that they should be "eliminated", in even the vaguest sense of the term.<BR/><BR/>The second quote merely questions be black and white rhetoric of the Bush administration. How is his questioning "eliminationist rhetoric"?<BR/><BR/>Here is what I would consider eliminationist rhetoric (and the kind I gather David Neiwert was speaking about in original article which was the inspiration for this thread):<BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/elrushbo-decree.html" REL="nofollow">Rush Limbaugh</A> ("<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh" REL="nofollow">between 14 and 20 million listeners per week, making it the largest radio talk show audience in the United States</A>"):<BR/> :<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"Wouldn't it be great if anybody who speaks out against this country, to kick them out of the country? Anybody that threatens this country, kick 'em out. We'd get rid of Michael Moore, we'd get rid of half the Democratic Party if we would just import that law. That would be fabulous. The Supreme Court ought to look into this. Absolutely brilliant idea out there."<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>-----<BR/><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://users.rcn.com/skutsch/anticoulter/quotes.html" REL="nofollow">Ann Coulter</A> ("<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter" REL="nofollow">bestselling author</A>"):<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."<BR/></B><BR/><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter" REL="nofollow">"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter" REL="nofollow">"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East, and sending liberals to Guantanamo."</A><BR/><BR/>-----<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://mediamatters.org/items/200405140003" REL="nofollow">Michael Savage</A> (reaching <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator)" REL="nofollow">over eight million listeners on 377 stations throughout the United States, [and who's] three New York Times bestsellers</A>"):<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be... They want this war over with, and they want it ended like the war against Japan. They'd like Big Boy dropped on one of the little cities over there. They don't care where. They don't **care** any more."<BR/></B><BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"Smallpox in a blanket, which the U.S. Army gave to the Cherokee Indians on their long march to the West, was nothing compared to what I'd like to see done to these people"<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>-----<BR/>-----<BR/><BR/>Please tell me how the above in any way compares in eliminationism to Dean's contention that<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"Republicans," he said, "I guess can do that because a lot of them have never made an honest living in their lives."<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>"This is a struggle between good and evil and we're the good?"<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>?<BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>By deliberately conflating Dean with the likes of Limbaugh, Coulter, and Savage you are doing us all a great disservice. Which is a shame, since you otherwise speak quite eloquently in opposition of totalitarianism.<BR/><BR/>This talent could, I humbly suggest, be better put to use in exposing the totalitarian strains in the present administration and their supporters (which are dangerously many) than in attacking the likes of Dean, who (as far as I know) has never even remotely approached the kind of eliminationism which is a literal threat to us all.Alephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12856327536053054763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1135107455700129932005-12-20T14:37:00.000-05:002005-12-20T14:37:00.000-05:00I'm amazed this thread is still going!Mike, we are...I'm amazed this thread is still going!<BR/><BR/>Mike, we are obviously coming from VERY different worldviews, but let's agree on a few things. Stalin and Mao - evil m**********rs. They were sociopaths who were given a leg up by the attractiveness of Communism to a lot of very badly-off people.<BR/><BR/>"However, a lot of people who suffered under Communism have more than a little disdain for people who do not seem to fully understand what capitalism provides as opposed to Socialism or Communism".<BR/><BR/>It's too bad we rarely hear from the poor of Cuba about comparing Castro to Batista. I'm not assuming I'd know who would fare better, but it would be nice to know what they thought, those who have lived under both.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you missed an earlier part of this thread, but my family (parents, grandparents) suffered a lot under the Soviets. I hate to break this to you, but Stalinism, Maoism and any other ism you can name, are no more indictments of Communism than the Inquisition is an indictment of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>BTW, do you consider Canada Socialist (many Americans do)? Can you point out a few of the Evils in my adopted country that I am not aware of?<BR/><BR/>Lastly, Mike;<BR/><BR/>"Considering that the knowledge of the passage of diseases was pretty weak when we first came here --- the mass slaughter of the natives that disease caused can hardly be called intentional."<BR/><BR/>Please man, read a bit more history. Sure, a lot of deaths were caused by exposure to unfamiliar diseases, but there was plenty of genocide going on (from English, Spanish, Portuguese and later, Americans).<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134868666320297642005-12-17T20:17:00.000-05:002005-12-17T20:17:00.000-05:00Just to confirm --Nobody here supports the United ...<I>Just to confirm --<BR/><BR/>Nobody here supports the United States, right?<BR/><BR/>Because, fuck, there's a great example of a nation that killed millions.<BR/><BR/>Or do we just conveniently forget about the Great American Genocides since, hey, they're just Indians [sic]?</I><BR/><BR/>Considering that the knowledge of the passage of diseases was pretty weak when we first came here --- the mass slaughter of the natives that disease caused can hardly be called intentional.<BR/>-=MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134868557307425392005-12-17T20:15:00.000-05:002005-12-17T20:15:00.000-05:00Thanks for the source, and I apologize for my sarc...<I>Thanks for the source, and I apologize for my sarcasm. That is a very interesting comparison, but given the WHO numbers it seems rather odd. Can you provide a bit more context? I presume these are daily rations, but is either (or both) the total personal intake for the day?</I><BR/><BR/>Well, obviously, it's nih impossible to nail down figures on the black market. But those were the official government numbers back in 1984 --- and, odds are, the numbers are significantly lower now as Cuba has lost its Soviet backing financially.<BR/><BR/>I'm stunned the WHO never has studied this to any degree --- or that ANYBODY outside of this one book (which was brutally hard to find for a paper I wrote in college) has really studied the topic.<BR/><BR/><I>Having looked a bit at who Montaner is, I would need a bit more than an excerpt from his book.<BR/><BR/>Check out this article by him;<BR/><BR/>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-11_8_05_CM.html<BR/><BR/>You may agree with it totally, but not too many liberals would be impressed by lines like<BR/><BR/>"The Left today is nothing but circus and street violence."</I><BR/><BR/>No argument it's inflammatory. However, a lot of people who suffered under Communism have more than a little disdain for people who do not seem to fully understand what capitalism provides as opposed to Socialism or Communism. And as he pointed out, he's watched as Latin America has become quite noticeably less democratic in the last 10 years, which is disconcerting.<BR/><BR/>It'd be, for me, questioning an elderly black person's visceral disdain for the KKK. Even if they're non-entities today, what they did in the past is unlikely to be forgotten by the victims.<BR/><BR/>Just an example of what that article you posted mentioned --- why in the world is Che Guevera on T-shirts, considering the unmitigated evil and viciousness of the man? When people discuss evil, why is Hitler's name mentioned significantly more than Stalin? Why did some in Berkeley get upset over a book that pointed out how evil Mao was.<BR/><BR/>And Latin America's move AWAY from democracy, which is very much in effect, is a potentially huge problem in the future that we'll ignore here until the problem becomes quite difficult to deal with.<BR/><BR/>And he is correct --- Chile should be THE example Latin America follows. It's a shame it is not.<BR/><BR/><I>My final comment had nothing to do with Cuba. A country as rich as the USA should have much better statistics than it does.</I><BR/><BR/>The USA, by and large, will do more work to try and save very immature babies, which will increase the infant mortality rate.<BR/><BR/>Also, from what I've studied of this in the past, there are some nice accounting gimmicks elsewhere to lower their numbers.<BR/><BR/>-=MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134795524468302042005-12-16T23:58:00.000-05:002005-12-16T23:58:00.000-05:00The point I'm making is that American communists w...<I>The point I'm making is that American communists willingly and knowingly supported a state that had killed millions. I don't care if they did it in the name of a "noble" ideology or not.</I><BR/><BR/>Just to confirm --<BR/><BR/>Nobody here supports the United States, right?<BR/><BR/>Because, fuck, there's a great example of a nation that killed millions.<BR/><BR/>Or do we just conveniently forget about the Great American Genocides since, hey, they're just Indians [sic]?Kivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03219608345811425868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134496643640995872005-12-13T12:57:00.000-05:002005-12-13T12:57:00.000-05:00Mike,Thanks for the source, and I apologize for my...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the source, and I apologize for my sarcasm. That is a very interesting comparison, but given the WHO numbers it seems rather odd. Can you provide a bit more context? I presume these are daily rations, but is either (or both) the total personal intake for the day?<BR/><BR/>Having looked a bit at who Montaner is, I would need a bit more than an excerpt from his book.<BR/><BR/>Check out this article by him;<BR/><BR/>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-11_8_05_CM.html<BR/><BR/>You may agree with it totally, but not too many liberals would be impressed by lines like<BR/><BR/>"The Left today is nothing but circus and street violence."<BR/><BR/>My final comment had nothing to do with Cuba. A country as rich as the USA should have much better statistics than it does.<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134459693923153682005-12-13T02:41:00.000-05:002005-12-13T02:41:00.000-05:00WRB, you read my comment rather oddly. I didn't sa...WRB, you read my comment rather oddly. I didn't say that all Christians are conservative. I said that unhinged right-wingers of the type Cathy describes <I>associate themselves</I> with Christianity--not that Christianity associates itself with them. Or, indeed, that they are actual Christians. (Jesus had much to say about those who claim to be God's people but never do anything Godly.)mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134422934223938342005-12-12T16:28:00.000-05:002005-12-12T16:28:00.000-05:00Mike, where do you get your info from? Rush Limbau...<I> Mike, where do you get your info from? Rush Limbaugh? I guess it's not the WHO. Maybe they're just Commie symps.</I><BR/>Seemed to miss the wole nutrition thing.<BR/><BR/>Fair enough.<BR/><BR/>From <I>Fidel Castro y La Revolucion Cubana</I> by Montaner, Carlos Alberto (1984):<BR/><BR/>Food rations in 1862 for Cuban slaves:<BR/>Meat: 8 oz<BR/>Rice: 4 oz<BR/>Starches: 16 oz<BR/>Beans: 4 oz<BR/><BR/>Castro government food ration since 1962:<BR/>Meat: 2 oz<BR/>Rice: 3 oz<BR/>Starches: 6.5 oz<BR/>Beans: 1 oz.<BR/><BR/><I>Note, this is more of a condemnation of how the US treats it's people, than a paean to Cuba.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure you'd REALLY want the US to treat you the way you'd be treated in Cuba.<BR/><BR/>If you criticize Castro, you tend to have problems. Criticize, say, Pres. Bush? Not so much.<BR/>-=MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134412719751749782005-12-12T13:38:00.000-05:002005-12-12T13:38:00.000-05:00Mythago writes:Cathy, another dimension I don't th...Mythago writes:<BR/><BR/>Cathy, another dimension I don't think has been addressed here is that the right has painted itself as the group pushing greater morality, old-fashioned virtues, and has associated itself with Christianity. <BR/><BR/>----------------------------------<BR/><BR/>WRB replies:<BR/><BR/>Hmm... have you ever heard of Liberation Theology, Mythago? (Rhetorical question... of course you have.)<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't exactly call mainstream American Protestantism "conservative" (as in Republican leaning), would you? Heck... even the American Catholic Church (regardless of dictates from Rome) can hardly be termed "conservative" if by conservative you mean supporting and voting overwhelmingly for the Republicans.<BR/><BR/>Would you have referred to the anti-slavery movement (in large part religiously driven both here and in Great Britain) as a "conservative" movement? How about American Civil Rights organizations led by and supported by Christian clerics and their flocks?<BR/><BR/>Yeah... there's a Christian Right. There's also a Christian Left. Finally... there's a Christian middle and Christians all over the political and ideological spectrum.<BR/><BR/>BILLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134408628928339092005-12-12T12:30:00.000-05:002005-12-12T12:30:00.000-05:00I thought, however, that Communism arose as a resp...<I>I thought, however, that Communism arose as a response to barbarism. The barbarism that was Tsarist Russia (barbaric to the vast majority anyway), and early corporatism. Of course, we know the Bolsheviks quickly reverted to what they had presumably fought against.</I><BR/><BR/>The Communists did not overthrow the Tsar. They overthrew a democratic government that had overthrown the Tsar.<BR/><BR/>Communism did not arise as a response to Tsarist Russia; indeed, Marx believed that Russia was too backwards to be revolutionary.<BR/><BR/><I>Anyway, a Just Society would not fear Communism, any more than it should fear fundamentalism.</I><BR/><BR/>Any society, just or not, should fear Communism for the same reason that it fears Naziism.Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08904466572072311023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134407211273323522005-12-12T12:06:00.000-05:002005-12-12T12:06:00.000-05:00Cathy,Your points are well-taken and appreciated. ...Cathy,<BR/><BR/>Your points are well-taken and appreciated. I was not trying to bash Christianity so much as to point out that any ideology can be perverted, no matter how benign it's origin or content.<BR/><BR/>I thought, however, that Communism arose as a response to barbarism. The barbarism that was Tsarist Russia (barbaric to the vast majority anyway), and early corporatism. Of course, we know the Bolsheviks quickly reverted to what they had presumably fought against.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, a Just Society would not fear Communism, any more than it should fear fundamentalism.<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134406204218416902005-12-12T11:50:00.000-05:002005-12-12T11:50:00.000-05:00Comparing American health statistics with Cuban he...Comparing American health statistics with Cuban health statistics is silly, because the Cuban statistics are whatever Castro and his minions decided that they should be.<BR/><BR/>Remember when it was confidently asserted that the Soviet Union had a large growing economy and would someday pass the United States in size?Floydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08904466572072311023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134400591076374752005-12-12T10:16:00.000-05:002005-12-12T10:16:00.000-05:00Rob: I replied to you about infant mortality compa...Rob: I replied to you about infant mortality comparisons because I happen to have looked into this subject and had the info ready.<BR/><BR/>As for Mike's nutrtional comparison to slaves in 1862: I have no idea where it comes from, and it sure smells funny to me. I would like Mike to provide the link if he can.<BR/><BR/>And by the way, yes, in a thread that's now 142 posts long, I'm not going to be able to reply to every post (particularly since I was busy working on a new blogpost yesterday). There are other posters here who've raised points I'd like to reply to as well, but I haven't as yet had a chance.<BR/><BR/>As for Christianity vs Communism: I think the comparison is off-base for several reasons.<BR/><BR/>1. Christianity is a spiritual belief, not a belief in a system of government. Its core message is about achieving salvation in the next world, not building a perfect society in this one. It's possible to be a Christian and reject all the organized Christian religions. Yes, theoretically it's also possible to be a Communist and reject all the actual communist regimes that have been existed, but a belief in communism nonetheless requires an aspiration to build "real communism" somewhere (and based on previous experience, we know what the results are likely to be). On the other hand, being a Christian does not require belief in any political or collective social action at all.<BR/><BR/>2. There have been many Christian societies in the world, only a minority of which used Christian ideology as a rationale for murder and repression. Every single Communist society that has ever existed has used Communist ideology as a rational for murder and repression.<BR/><BR/>3. Christianity developed in a world that had no modern notions of human rights. Overall, I would say, it was socially a force for good. (For instance, against the backdrop of women's status in the early European societies -- among the Franks, the Goths, etc. -- the Catholic Church was actually a <I>champion</I> of women's rights; it played a major role in curbing the practice of forced marriages, for instance.) While there were some major religion-driven atrocities such as mass slaughter of heretics (the Cathars, for instance), similar atrocities were common in the world of that time for non-religious reasons -- e.g., in wars of conquest.<BR/><BR/>By contrast, Communism (like Nazism) arose in the post-Enlightenment West, and represented a MAJOR regression to barbarism.<BR/><BR/>Let me also reiterate that in this discussion, I was not talking about people who believe in some abstract ideal of communism, but about Communists who <I>supported the Soviet regime</I>.<BR/><BR/>I will grant you, and Dave, that the outward trappings of communist ideology (all that talk of peace, equality, championing the oppressed, etc. etc.) gave those people (compared to Nazis) a way to support a murderous regime and remain high-minded about it. I don't see that as a good thing.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134380771398897122005-12-12T04:46:00.000-05:002005-12-12T04:46:00.000-05:00Pooh,Of course it's silly. But it is logically con...Pooh,<BR/><BR/>Of course it's silly. But it is logically consistent with the kind of hyperbole that flies around about people who sincerely hold communist beliefs, and compares them to Nazis. That was the point of the comment. Actually, "silly" is far too weak a term. Maybe I should have stuck a [a modest proposal] tag on it.<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134362697114777682005-12-11T23:44:00.000-05:002005-12-11T23:44:00.000-05:00Rob, that's just silly. As a counterpoint (given y...Rob, that's just silly. As a counterpoint (given you went all 1860s first) John Brown was a mass murderer. We should therefore have banned abolitionism. Really, yours is the kind of ludicrous statement which allows the "moonbat" epithet to have some traction. Even if it was meant in jest.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134354826382304062005-12-11T21:33:00.000-05:002005-12-11T21:33:00.000-05:00Cathy,Fair enough. Where is your comment about Mik...Cathy,<BR/><BR/>Fair enough. Where is your comment about Mike's<BR/><BR/>"You are aware that Cubans TODAY are fed worse than Cuban SLAVES were in 1862, right?"<BR/><BR/>Or is this obviously true? Maybe you could then provide the source. It does seem that you address the questions for which you *want* to give answers for.<BR/><BR/>On Dave's point (with which I agree); if we are to stigmatize superficially attractive philosophies which result in mass murder and suffering, shouldn't we ban Christianity?<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134352117163748412005-12-11T20:48:00.000-05:002005-12-11T20:48:00.000-05:00To Dave Neiwert: If communism was able to attract ...To Dave Neiwert: If communism was able to attract smarter and more sophisticated people to what was in essence a totalitarian and murderous ideology, doesn't that, in a way, make it <I>more</I> dangerous?<BR/><BR/>I will grant you that communist ideology had a certain outward "idealism" that could attract a better caliber of people than Nazism. However, for a very long time, Western communists knew that they were supporting a regime that was ruthlessly suppressing dissent and killing people in large numbers. They offered a variety of "can't make an omelette without breaking the eggs" excuses for it.<BR/><BR/>Rob, re Cuban infant mortality stats: a direct comparison between Cuba and the US in this respect is somewhat misleading, because extremely low-weigt, premature births are not counted as live births in Cuba (and many other countries), while they are in the US. Here are a couple of articles with more info on this:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=16350" REL="nofollow">Lessons from Cuba on Infant Mortality</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:IZkjhmgZlXAJ:www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000019.html+cuba+infant+mortality&hl=en" REL="nofollow">Cuba vs the US on infant mortality</A>Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134349683722388052005-12-11T20:08:00.000-05:002005-12-11T20:08:00.000-05:00Mike, where do you get your info from? Rush Limbau...Mike, where do you get your info from? Rush Limbaugh? I guess it's not the WHO. Maybe they're just Commie symps.<BR/><BR/>www.who.int/countries/en<BR/><BR/>USA<BR/><BR/>Total population: 294,043,000<BR/>GDP per capita (Intl $, 2002): 36,056<BR/>Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/80.0<BR/>Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.2/71.3<BR/>Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 9/7<BR/>Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 139/82<BR/>Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2002): 5,274<BR/>Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2002): 14.6<BR/>Figures are for 2003 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2005<BR/><BR/>Cuba<BR/><BR/>Total population: 11,300,000<BR/>GDP per capita (Intl $, 2002): 3,166<BR/>Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/79.0<BR/>Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.1/69.5<BR/>Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 8/6<BR/>Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 137/87<BR/>Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2002): 236<BR/>Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2002): 7.5<BR/>Figures are for 2003 unless indicated. Source: The world health report 2005<BR/><BR/>Note, this is more of a condemnation of how the US treats it's people, than a paean to Cuba.<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134349036549437962005-12-11T19:57:00.000-05:002005-12-11T19:57:00.000-05:00I may be repeating myself (again), but I think all...I may be repeating myself (again), but I think all this argument about who is worse is tangential. It doesn't matter, objectively, which side is worse. What matters is that there are plenty of people on both sides who allow their side to be charicatured as "unhinged" in one way or another. So people subjectively feel that they can't or don't have to engage with those of differing viewpoints.<BR/><BR/>To make an animal kingdom analogy, commentators should have a symbiotic relationship with politics, whereas too often now they have a parasitic relationship.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134348591248463942005-12-11T19:49:00.000-05:002005-12-11T19:49:00.000-05:00Of course, the right is asserting that it's the le...<I>Of course, the right is asserting that it's the left that's much, much worse. Ultimately, I don't think anyone (any ideologue, at least) wants to merely congratulate themselves on not being worse than the other side. They all want to believe they're better.</I><BR/><BR/>Cathy, another dimension I don't think has been addressed here is that the right has painted itself as the group pushing greater morality, old-fashioned virtues, and has associated itself with Christianity. So conveniently forgetting those claimed virtues when it's handy to do so adds an extra layer of jerkdom. (Would Jesus have told anyone to beat up liberals with a baseball bat?)mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134336032173114312005-12-11T16:20:00.000-05:002005-12-11T16:20:00.000-05:00I agree with Pooh: The French Suck!(*GRIN*)The oth...I agree with Pooh: The French Suck!<BR/><BR/>(*GRIN*)<BR/><BR/>The other day, back when there were "only" 71 or so comments, I wrote a lengthy response to the responses to my original comment, previewed it, and then... accidentally deleted it! (*UGH*) Anyway... just a few quick points:<BR/><BR/>To Pinko Punko - Republicans LOVE puppies! (*SMILE*)<BR/><BR/>To Cornellian - The Roman Empire? Feudal Europe? Going a bit far afield, aren't you? (*GRIN*) (I guess the Dems were the plebs and later the peasants?) (*WINK*)<BR/><BR/>To Navigator - Great cut and paste job! (*SMILE*) Seriously... good debating technique! <BR/><BR/>To Valdron - (1) You wrote, "As I understand it, Michelle Malkin has written a dishonest book..." You see... here's the problem... while you may be right, you're bashing the book and the author without having read it. I admitted that I hadn't read it and therefore didn't comment on the book itself. (2) Timothy McVeigh? Ted Kaczynski? The Order? The Branch Davidians? Eric Rudolf? The Anthrax Terrorists? The Brooks Brothers riot??? (*SCRATCHING HEAD*) Are you TRYING to make my point for me about how many on the left simply seem to be "unhinged?"<BR/><BR/>To Navigator - "... either a fool or a resident of an alternate universe." Me? (*SMIRK*) Tsk, tsk, tsk... reduced to name-calling. (*SMIRK*) Oh... and thanks for finally realizing that I'm Mr. BARKER and not "Mr. Brooks." (*SMILE*)<BR/><BR/>Back to Valdron - "Anarchism as a fashion statement." (*SCRATCHING HEAD*) On a more serious note, you really don't understand libertarian theory at all.<BR/><BR/>To Synova - Yep... it is hard to find common ground when one side calmly and oh so sophisticatedly states that their side is respresented by those who think and the other side is not. (*SMILE*) To generalize... liberals do seem to gravitate towards condescendion. (sp?)<BR/><BR/>To Cathy - Hmm... you really think DeLay is more "unhinged" than Dean or Pelosi. Interesting! One point confuses me, though. If on the torture thread you claim that even monsters are "human" and deserve to be treated as human, why would you come down so hard on DeLay believing that Terri Schiavo was as alive as you or I? If you get around to reading this post, please consider my question for a moment and reply.<BR/><BR/>To Steve J - You can find "nutty" quotes from pretty much anyone who has a paper trail. Fair enough quoting Mehlman though! (*GRIN*) If I have time maybe I'll come up with a few Dean doozies to counter. (*SMILE*)<BR/><BR/>To David Rubien - I think the moment you put "Neo-Nazi White Supremacists" in the same category with "Rush Limbaugh" you lost those of us on the "hinged" side of the debate. (*SMIRK*)<BR/><BR/>* Notice when Revenant replied in kind he didn't put "Shining Path" or the equivilant on his list alongside Michael Moore? See... that's the difference between opinionated and "hinged" as opposed to partisanly UNHINGED. <BR/><BR/>To DogRiverDan - I love Canada! Ottaway is one of the most beautiful cities on earth. Quebec City - even with the pseudo-Frenchies (*GRIN*) - is another winner! I like Toronto... Montreal is o.k.... I'm looking forward to the day I get to travel to the Canadian West! Ya know... Canadians and Americans may argue like brothers and cousins, but when it comes right down to it, that's what we are - "family."<BR/><BR/>To Cathy (again!) - Just out of curiousity... do you think if Pinochet had never been born his country would have been better off or worse off for his absence? <BR/><BR/>To Paul Zrimsek - Excellent post! Short and to the point!<BR/><BR/>To Cobranose - Now see... you're a great example of "hinged!" (*GRIN*) <BR/><BR/>I tell ya, kids... some of the comments people post... ya just have to laugh! That said... it's a real kudo to Cathy how many truly bright and well-informed people of all political and ideological strips contribute to The Y Files.<BR/><BR/>BILLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1134332410408658412005-12-11T15:20:00.000-05:002005-12-11T15:20:00.000-05:00The American Communist Party uniformly urged a pro...<I>The American Communist Party uniformly urged a program involving the proletariat seizing the means of capital and freeing the workers (naive rhetoric, perhaps, but also hopefully idealistic), and there was an ongoing debate about the Party's commitment to and involvement with the Soviet regime (though we now know that in fact the Party was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Soviets ... rather like the Bund, the Silver Shirts and the America Firsters were for the Nazis).</I><BR/><BR/>So, what you're saying is that there WAS no debate about Soviet involvement since it was there.<BR/><BR/>And it is immaterial why people do evil. Terrorists believe they are saving people from themselves. <BR/><BR/>Hardly makes their actions OK.<BR/><BR/><I>The Nazis attracted the country's most thuggish and violent, Klanlike elements.<BR/><BR/>The Communists attracted intellectuals and artists.</I><BR/><BR/>So both attracted blind morons? Kudos to both of them.<BR/><BR/>A thug and an artist who both subscribe to evil views of life aren't appreciably different. In many ways, the Communists were worse because they were more willing to completely obscure what they wanted.<BR/><BR/><I>It's like saying there are no differences between first-degree murder and manslaughter. Both produce a dead person.<BR/><BR/>But we do make a distinction based on their motivations, and it is not a fine one. I think the same kind of distinction holds regarding American Communists and American Nazis.</I><BR/><BR/>A mindset where anybody who isn't part of a political party is not worthy of rights, as Communists did, is every inch as evil as one that believes that anybody who is part of a religion is not worthy of rights.<BR/><BR/>That you don't see the similarity is quite disheartening.<BR/>-=MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com