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I explained in my post why legalizing them is likely to make it worse.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree that your concerns are legitimate. But I think you're less likely to find yourself on a slippery slope if you have fixed rules for the use of torture (or "aggressive interrogation") and punish interrogators who violate them, than you are if you have a tacit understanding that it is ok to violate the rules if it is "really important". Individual people often have wildly inflated ideas of what "really important" is.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133526367979126952005-12-02T07:26:00.000-05:002005-12-02T07:26:00.000-05:00Revenant: to be honest, at the moment I can say on...Revenant: to be honest, at the moment I can say only that the notion of torturing an innocent person strikes me as infinitely more repulsive than killing an innocent person as "collateral damage" in a bombing. Perhaps it's the systematic, methodical nature of the act. Perhaps because while pain is preferable to death, torture degrades a human being and strips him/her of human dignity in a way that death does not. (By the way, I recall reading that in ancient Rome, Roman citizens could face the death penalty for a variety of crimes but were legally exempt from torture, which could be applied only to slaves and non-citizens.)<BR/><BR/>As for my position: I think that in wartime, we may sometimes be faced with the necessity of doing unacceptable things. I explained in my post why legalizing them is likely to make it worse.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133504020059101502005-12-02T01:13:00.000-05:002005-12-02T01:13:00.000-05:00Torture is illegal, NOW. It says so in the US Code...Torture is illegal, NOW. It says so in the US Code. Here, I'll quote it, save you the trouble of Googling; don't let that stop the argument, though!<BR/><BR/>TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340A<BR/>§ 2340A. Torture<BR/>Release date: 2005-08-03 <BR/><BR/>(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. <BR/><BR/>(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if— <BR/>(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or <BR/>(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender. <BR/><BR/>(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133495076977390522005-12-01T22:44:00.000-05:002005-12-01T22:44:00.000-05:00Under civilized norms of warfare, civilian deaths ...<I>Under civilized norms of warfare, civilian deaths as a result of bombings etc. are seen as regrettable but unavoidable, while torture is seen as completely unacceptable. I'm happy to allow these norms to stay in place.</I><BR/><BR/>That's an argumentum ad populum fallacy, though, not a moral argument against the use of torture. At one time the "civilized norm of warfare" was to kill any inconvenient prisoners of war you didn't feel like dealing with. At yet another time, the civilized norm was to fight in strict formation, not from trenches or from behind walls. We now recognize the former as morally wrong and the latter as a pointless (and harmful) adherence to tradition. In other words, history shows us that "civilized" and "moral" aren't synonyms.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm pretty sure I'd choose the former. That doesn't mean the rapist is morally superior to the reckless driver.</I><BR/><BR/>You're comparing a deliberate crime to an accidental crime, though. A person who knowingly harms an innocent may be worse than one who accidentally kills an innocent -- but is a person who accidentally harms an innocent also morally worse than a person who accidentally kills one?<BR/><BR/>Also, you say that we consider torture "completely unacceptable" and that you're happy to keep it that way. But unless I've misread your posts (which is entirely possible), you do tolerate the idea of torture in situations which, while perhaps highly unlikely, are nevertheless possible. If I read you correctly, aren't you tacitly acknowledging that torture is, at least hypothetically, sometimes the right thing to do?Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133490774263771812005-12-01T21:32:00.000-05:002005-12-01T21:32:00.000-05:00Revenant, I think there's a lot of evidence that s...Revenant, I think there's a lot of evidence that support for U.S. troops among the Iraqi population has dropped considerably in the wake of the Abu Grahib revelations.<BR/><BR/>As for your other point: Under civilized norms of warfare, civilian deaths as a result of bombings etc. are seen as regrettable but unavoidable, while torture is seen as completely unacceptable. I'm happy to allow these norms to stay in place.<BR/><BR/>"Would you rather spend some time in pain or be dead" is not really a valid question. For one thing, some people have killed themselves to avoid torture. For another, the morality of an injurious act is not necessarily measured by the degree of its undesirability to the victim. If I had a choice between being kidnapped and repeatedly raped and beaten for two days, or being run over by a car and killed, I'm pretty sure I'd choose the former. That doesn't mean the rapist is morally superior to the reckless driver.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133484680517740682005-12-01T19:51:00.000-05:002005-12-01T19:51:00.000-05:00Having just seen Revvy proclaim the moral equivale...<I>Having just seen Revvy proclaim the moral equivalence of soldiers shooting armed soldiers on the battlefield, and captors torturing prisoners in jail (including potentially innocent ones), I'm bailing.</I><BR/><BR/>That's an intellectually dishonest misrepresentation of my position, as well you know. The equivalence I am drawing is between having a policy of shooting at deserving people (soldiers) and sometimes accidentally killing innocents (civilians), and torturing deserving people (terrorists) and sometimes accidentally torturing innocents (civilians).<BR/><BR/>Many people are acting as if it is obvious that accidentally inflicting pain on the undeserving is worse than accidentally inflicting death on the undeserving -- that the former is some horrible "abyss" of evil and anti-Americanism while the latter is just a regrettable but unavoidable part of war as usual. Well, it isn't obvious. You should explain your reasoning.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133480459501797412005-12-01T18:40:00.000-05:002005-12-01T18:40:00.000-05:00Having just seen Revvy proclaim the moral equivale...Having just seen Revvy proclaim the moral equivalence of soldiers shooting armed soldiers on the battlefield, and captors torturing prisoners in jail (including potentially innocent ones), I'm bailing. I don't want the abyss looking back at me one more moment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133474981208489992005-12-01T17:09:00.000-05:002005-12-01T17:09:00.000-05:00Thats all it takes? Well gee, if its that easy, an...<I>Thats all it takes? Well gee, if its that easy, and torture has been practiced in the military in this war, why hasen't been there any prosecutions?</I><BR/><BR/>First of all, there <B>have</B> been prosecutions -- several of the Abu Ghraib torturers have been tried, I believe.<BR/><BR/>But you are correct, so far as I'm aware, that no charges have been brought in US civilian courts. The reason for that is that no torture has taken place in areas where those courts have jurisdiction -- it has all taken place overseas, in areas controlled by the US military. You cannot, so far as I'm aware, convict a US soldier, in US court, for torturing an Iraqi in Iraq. The Iraqis could convict him (in a civilian court), or the US military could convict him (in a military court), but so far as I know you couldn't bring charges in a US court unless you somehow tied him to crimes committed in the USA.<BR/><BR/><I>I hate to keep pounding on you, Revenant, but what empirical evidence?!?</I><BR/><BR/>The two big pieces of evidence are: <BR/><BR/>(1): The Abu Ghraib scandal had no measurable effect on terrorist recruitment or anti-American terrorist activity. Further torture revelations have, similarly, had no apparent impact. You are correct that the frequency of terrorist attacks increased after Abu Ghraib came to light; what you miss is that (a) they had been increasing already beforehand and (b) the increase was in attacks on Iraqis, not Americans. Indeed, the rate at which American troops were killed actually dropped in mid-2004, following the Abu Ghraib revelations.<BR/><BR/>(2): The biggest torturers of innocent Muslims are nations like Egypt, Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, who torture easily hundreds or thousands of times as many innocent people as we do. Yet they aren't the targets of terrorism that we are, or that Iraq is. The major target of Muslim terrorists today is Iraqi civilians, who haven't done anything to anybody.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133469495388079092005-12-01T15:38:00.000-05:002005-12-01T15:38:00.000-05:00The empiricial evidence is that terrorists don't m...<I>The empiricial evidence is that terrorists don't much care about torture of innocent people, and the torture of innocents doesn't significantly help terrorists recruit.</I><BR/><BR/>I hate to keep pounding on you, Revenant, but what empirical evidence?!? After the US's big torture scandal at Abu Ghraib, support for the US went down, bombings went up, and if Al Qaeda didn't view US torture as a big propaganda opportunity for them then what was this news story about: <BR/><BR/><I>Insurgents attack Abu Ghraib prison <BR/>Car bombs, rockets and mortars used in audacious assault <BR/><BR/>Rory Carroll in Baghdad<BR/>Monday April 4, 2005<BR/>The Guardian <BR/><BR/>Scores of insurgents mounted an audacious assault on Baghdad's Abu Ghraib jail over the weekend with a barrage of rockets, mortars, car bombs and small-arms fire that wounded at least 44 US troops and 12 prisoners. <BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>An internet statement purportedly from al-Qaida's wing in Iraq, which is led by the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed responsibility yesterday and said its members had fired more than 39 Katyusha rockets. "Then the merciful brigades and Muslim soldiers clashed with the infidels." </I><BR/><BR/>ZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133468661545556072005-12-01T15:24:00.000-05:002005-12-01T15:24:00.000-05:00I'm sorry, I missed that you thought he'd never be...<I> I'm sorry, I missed that you thought he'd never be prosecuted. He clearly would be. All it takes is one holier-than-thou activist (and this thread has shown they exist in abundance) to bring charges before a grand jury. </I><BR/><BR/>Really? Thats all it takes? Well gee, if its that easy, and torture has been practiced in the military in this war, why hasen't been there any prosecutions? Could you explain that to me?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133466367715096942005-12-01T14:46:00.000-05:002005-12-01T14:46:00.000-05:00I said that a person who tortured a terrorist and ...<I>I said that a person who tortured a terrorist and used that information to save a large number of lives would not be prosecuted for the torture.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, I missed that you thought he'd never be prosecuted. He clearly would be. All it takes is one holier-than-thou activist (and this thread has shown they exist in abundance) to bring charges before a grand jury.<BR/><BR/><I>Your casuistry is becoming increasingly more apparent, and undermining your already tenuous case</I><BR/><BR/>Whatever. At least I'm presenting a case. The anti-torture side's case consists of "torture doesn't work" (a lie), "it'll probably never be useful" (yay, wishful thinking is fun!) and "well if it comes up we'll just hope everyone ignores the law".<BR/><BR/>The difference between my position and that of most of the anti-torture side is that I say we should make torture legal in predefined circumstances, while the anti-torture side says we should make it illegal in all circumstances but go ahead and allow it sometimes anyway. Please.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133465929923523342005-12-01T14:38:00.000-05:002005-12-01T14:38:00.000-05:00And you, in turn, are assuming that torturing anyb...<I>And you, in turn, are assuming that torturing anybody is likely to keep terrorists from killing your family. Which is an unproven, and unproveable, assumption.</I><BR/><BR/>Torture increases the yield of verifiable data. Better data lets us better prevent attacks. So the reasonable prediction is that it would, in fact, make my family less likely to be subjected to a terrorist attack.<BR/><BR/>But in any case, your logic applies to every aspect of a war. When a soldier fires his gun, it is unproven and unprovable that he is doing anything to help end the war, or bring peace, or protect his family, or indeed have any positive effect of any kind. On the other hand, there is a clear risk of him hitting an innocent. Should all our soldiers henceforth refrain from firing their weapons?<BR/><BR/><I>As for the difference between accidentally bombing an innocent man and accidentally torturing him, I should think it would become pretty glaringly obvious after, oh, the first minute or so</I><BR/><BR/>I should think so too. After the first minute or so the first man would be dead, and the second merely in pain. Tell me, which would you rather be -- dead, or in pain?Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133465680831862272005-12-01T14:34:00.000-05:002005-12-01T14:34:00.000-05:00How is the defendent going to say "I had to use to...<I> How is the defendent going to say "I had to use torture to get information" without admitting he used torture? If he admits to using torture, he can't plead not guilty. There is no such thing as justifiable torture, in our legal system. </I><BR/><BR/>revenant,<BR/>I said that a person who tortured a terrorist and used that information to save a large number of lives would not be prosecuted for the torture. In your response, you assumed that the torturer is already on trial, and thus being prosecuted. Your casuistry is becoming increasingly more apparent, and undermining your already tenuous case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com