tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post113309777987535371..comments2024-03-28T03:19:40.014-04:00Comments on The Y Files: Academic freedom, extremism, and whose ox is being goredCathy Younghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-86658477706568902872011-05-17T23:17:07.193-04:002011-05-17T23:17:07.193-04:00nice share thanks a lot :)
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As to why ... I would argue that at least in part, it's because English professors don't have to deal with "objective reality" as much as, say, history or even political science professors do (to compare other humanities only). There's more room for subjective thinking.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133344242843017802005-11-30T04:50:00.000-05:002005-11-30T04:50:00.000-05:00Faculty surveys show that English departments are ...<I>Faculty surveys show that English departments are the most left-wing sector of the academy.</I> <BR/><BR/>Anectdotally, this seems correct. Assuming it is true, I wonder why. Is it a self-sustaining thing (english profs are liberal, so the students who follow tend to be liberal,) or are people predisposed towards liberalism also predisposed towards Jane Austen?Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133332263580526122005-11-30T01:31:00.000-05:002005-11-30T01:31:00.000-05:00While I don't think looney political views should ...While I don't think looney political views should disqualify one from a teaching position, I do think there is a rather widespread problem of English instructors using their classes as vehicles for political indoctrination. Faculty surveys show that English departments are <I>the</I> most left-wing sector of the academy.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133326675281327032005-11-29T23:57:00.000-05:002005-11-29T23:57:00.000-05:00It's a community college instructor, not a Harvard...It's a community college instructor, not a Harvard Law Prof. No insult intended towards community college instructors but the hiring process probably doesn't get into whether the instructor is "brilliant" or "nuts".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133323124327450532005-11-29T22:58:00.000-05:002005-11-29T22:58:00.000-05:00O.K., let's compromise: I'll consider the possibil...O.K., let's compromise: I'll consider the possibility that colleges should hire brilliant nuts if you consider the possibility that colleges shouldn't hire less than brilliant (or how about less than intelligent?) nuts? Again... I ask you... does this Daly guy sound like the optimal (or even a reasonable) choice to hire as an instructer at a college or university? From reading his comments that started this discussion, my thought is "no."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133310885433388312005-11-29T19:34:00.000-05:002005-11-29T19:34:00.000-05:00I mean... come on... the "smell test" tells us tha...<I>I mean... come on... the "smell test" tells us that Daly is nuts, yet, a college hires him to teach a class?</I><BR/><BR/>It isn't exactly uncommon for people who are brilliant in one area to have completely idiotic beliefs in another (Noam Chomsky comes to mind). If Daly were being hired to teach current events, philosophy, or political science, his views would perhaps be a deal-breaker. But it doesn't necessarily matter if English teachers believe in armed rebellion, just as it doesn't matter if Physics teachers think the genius of 50 Cent rivals that of Mozart, or if Art History teachers think UFOs control the Pentagon.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133294778227320422005-11-29T15:06:00.000-05:002005-11-29T15:06:00.000-05:00How do idiots like Daly get hired in the first pla...How do idiots like Daly get hired in the first place? I mean... come on... the "smell test" tells us that Daly is nuts, yet, a college hires him to teach a class? This kind of over the top poor judgement is what gives academia a bad name. (Oh... and as Anonymous/RK rightly implies... the guy doesn't even sound like a highly educated nut! He doesn't even know what fascism is!) And let me just add this: Civility is to be encouraged, incivility is to be discouraged. Frankly, it's good for society and good for academia to demand civility from teachers and professors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133293915419709622005-11-29T14:51:00.000-05:002005-11-29T14:51:00.000-05:00In-so-far as to determine if he should be relived ...<I>In-so-far as to determine if he should be relived for his statements about “turning guns?” or bringing bad press to the school. IMHO, that’s a NO.</I><BR/><BR/>Bringing bad press on your employer seems like reasonable cause for termination to me -- the job of an employee is to provide greater benefit to his employer than he does cost, after all. I have no idea if it is *legal* grounds for termination, though.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133281678737331452005-11-29T11:27:00.000-05:002005-11-29T11:27:00.000-05:00"So the question, if any, would appear to be wheth..."So the question, if any, would appear to be whether it was appropriate for a university to even holding hearings to decide if discipline was appropriate."<BR/><BR/>It depends on what the meeting was going to be about…<BR/><BR/>In-so-far as to determine if Daly was laying an implicit, albeit pathetically inarticulate and impotent, threat to a student to determine if it hits the Threat or Harassment membrane? Yes, that’s very much appropriate! It’s called due process. The alternative would be to summarily terminate or suspend him like they did to the prof at DePaul a few months ago.<BR/><BR/>In-so-far as to determine if Daly was not telling the truth when he claimed he didn’t know he was corresponding with a student or other member of the campus community? (And since the YAF email likely came through the “Campus Community” uber-email address, that statement from him is particularly lame and sets off my credibility detectors.) But Yes, that too is appropriate under due process (once again, consider the alternative). <BR/><BR/>In-so-far as to determine if it was inappropriate to relive Daly of his teaching load for the statements or email. Once again, Hell Yes!! The school should not have done that without due process to begin with.<BR/><BR/>In-so-far as to determine if he could be called out for using a personal non-professional email to conduct rude, uncivil, possibly threatening, university-related, business? Yes. Both profs or students can forward their *.edu emails to personal accounts so I don’t see *.com activity as an insulating matter. When I conduct or discuss business “off-duty,” I should expect to be held accountable for it. Consider a case where a professor is harassing (as per federal criteria) a student or employee from his Yahoo email. You bet your sweet bippy it’d count! Also the on-shift vs. on-duty vs. on-call argument for professors (especially in units where patents can be generated for the university) is a hot topic anyway. This isn’t anything new.<BR/><BR/>In-so-far as to determine if he should be relived for his statements about “turning guns?” or bringing bad press to the school. IMHO, that’s a NO. However, their ethics code may have an “undue embarrassment” clause. I don’t like those since I think they constitute an out to terminate someone for inconvenient viewpoints (left or right). But if it’s on the books, you fight it through the books, or through courts. Universities have a lot of low-level autonomy in that area – it’s no different than campus interdiction policies for alcohol or cooking in dorms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133247607408409532005-11-29T02:00:00.000-05:002005-11-29T02:00:00.000-05:00The question of whether WCCC could have fired/disc...<I>The question of whether WCCC could have fired/disciplined Daly is a different question than whether it should do so.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that either question is applicable, since neither happened. So far as I can tell, WCCC never reached any decision to discipline or fire Daly; he resigned before any hearings happened.<BR/><BR/>So the question, if any, would appear to be whether it was appropriate for a university to even holding hearings to decide if discipline was appropriate.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133235063459749472005-11-28T22:31:00.000-05:002005-11-28T22:31:00.000-05:00Anon, I believe you are mistkaing my point. More c...Anon, <BR/><BR/>I believe you are mistkaing my point. More clearly stated, just because you hold an unpopular opinion does not mean every bad thing that happens to you is based on suppressing that viewpoint. In my mind this <I>is</I> a close case between impermissible viewpoint restriction and legitimate concern with a professor acting within the bounds of professional decency. The fact that he <I>was</I> in fact emailing a student is what tips it in towards the latter in my mind. If he had just stopped at "I will continue to expose your right-wing, anti-people politics until groups like your won't dare show their face on a college campus," he would have been fine. But he didn't.<BR/><BR/>Again, I don't personally think that this was a firing offense, but that's a judgment call rather than a legal one, if that makes sense. We also aren't privy to his record, and if he's done anything remotely like intimidating a student before, well, all bets are off. Can we agree on that?<BR/><BR/>Brad, <BR/><BR/>as to your point in response to my question about how this reflects on his professional capabalities, I guess I have to disagree in that he is an ENGLISH professor. His baliwick is words and their usage. Comparing him to a 'physiscist who speaks inexactly on lay matters' doesn't quite hold.<BR/><BR/>All,<BR/><BR/>Is it possible that we are having two seperate, not entirely consistent, arguments here? The question of whether WCCC could have fired/disciplined Daly is a different question than whether it <I>should</I> do so.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133219651615211162005-11-28T18:14:00.000-05:002005-11-28T18:14:00.000-05:00It's called viewpoint discrimination and when you ...<I>It's called viewpoint discrimination and when you are singled out for punishment based on your viewpoint, that's illegal.</I><BR/><BR/>Where's the evidence that he was singled out or punised for his viewpoint? He was abusive and intimidating to a student of the university he taught at. That's a content-neutral grounds for a conduct hearing. It might not be grounds for firing, but since he wasn't fired that's not really relevant.<BR/><BR/>Question: if a clerk at the DMV told every woman who comes in "whores like you shouldn't be allowed to drive", could he legally be reprimanded, or even fired? So far as I know, the answer is "yes" -- he could be punished under a viewpoint-neutral policy against being verbally abusive.<BR/><BR/><I>At what point does your employer, any employer, get to hold you accountable for such things?</I><BR/><BR/>When it affects your ability to do your job and/or harms the employer. Daly showed conduct and character that is undesirable in an instructor.<BR/><BR/><I>I'd be stunned if I came in to work tomorrow and was fired because of a view I'd expressed over email to someone from a private account</I><BR/><BR/>Would you be surprised if the email in question had described your plans to use your position at the company in a manner abusive to clients? I wouldn't. Well, that's what Daly did.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, yeah, I know Daly claims he didn't know he was talking to a student. I see no reason to believe him, since his own words indicate that he's an amoral scumbag. The notion that a man who advocates the murder of political opponents would balk at lying to protect his job doesn't pass a laugh test.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133212070375440402005-11-28T16:07:00.000-05:002005-11-28T16:07:00.000-05:00"And? If he's a jerk, does making him a jerk with ..."And? If he's a jerk, does making him a jerk with unpopular opinions keep him from being terminated?"<BR/><BR/>It does when your employer is the government, your speech is protected by the First Amendment and your being terminated because of the content of your speech. It's called viewpoint discrimination and when you are singled out for punishment based on your viewpoint, that's illegal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133207094328653512005-11-28T14:44:00.000-05:002005-11-28T14:44:00.000-05:00revenant, interesting that you think the fact that...<I>revenant, interesting that you think the fact that Daly sent the email from a private account makes it less relevant to academic freedom</I><BR/><BR/>Academic freedom is the freedom to pursue academic inquiry without fear of punishment. It is not the freedom to do whatever the heck you want without consequences so long as the words "college" or "university" are on your paycheck. Daly's comments were unrelated to his work, which was teaching English at a community college -- or rather, inasmuch as they were related, it was because they reflected on his character, not because they were related to his job directly.<BR/><BR/>There's also something perverse about the idea that academic freedom covers plans to deny other people academic freedom.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133205792613171342005-11-28T14:23:00.000-05:002005-11-28T14:23:00.000-05:00I agree that the "treason" thing is overblown and ...I agree that the "treason" thing is overblown and silly. But for the other charge that's being bandied about:<BR/><BR/>One must unfortunately recognize that the bench of “harassment” on a large number of campuses is based on the perception of the recipient or whims of a judicial officer rather than repeated behaviors or the reasonable person rules that mark more rigorous investigations of harassment. In either scenario, the judicial officers may be at the mercy of a reporting squeaky wheel regardless of rationality, or may have the option to cherry pick their offenders as in the case where a school brought charges against an Affirmative Action Bake Sale but not a concurrent Pay-Equity Bake Sale. If this was the school’s policy or if the professor personally held and acted as of this lesser benchmark for harassment was acceptable on a campus, his email would place him in a very nasty pickle. Indeed, that could have been enough of a pickle to pressure him into resignation.<BR/><BR/>I for one don’t think that he punched through the harassment membrane unless he made an effort to organize a Hecker’s Veto (ala Washington State) or organized retaliation against the student. But given the tone of the email he seems to be too inarticulate, unprofessional and impotent to get it off to any “reasonable person standard” of momentum. I would be very interested to know the school’s *and* Dr. Daly’s stand on Harassment before this incident. That would make the overall evaluation of the scenario much more navigable. After all, when you make your own rope, you should be prepared to hang by it. Fair or unfair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133202601674020532005-11-28T13:30:00.000-05:002005-11-28T13:30:00.000-05:00Except that's not what happened. There were calls ...<I>Except that's not what happened. There were calls that he be fired and forced to go through "tolerance training". The school was ready to hold an emergency session to discuss the situation. What was there to discuss except that it appears likely he was going to be sanctioned or fired for expressing his views.</I><BR/><BR/>And? If he's a jerk, does making him a jerk with unpopular opinions keep him from being terminated? Daly is free to say any damn fool thing he pleases, and I support that. However, words can be actions, and actions have consequences. If I were in charge of WCCC would I fire him? Well not for just this, but if he had a history of behavior inappropriate for a professor (can we at least agree on that much?) then maybe. But I think I would be within my rights to do so.<BR/><BR/>You have a point in that 'tolerance training' and such is just more PC silliness. But this really isn't the case I would want to hang my first amendment hat upon.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133198659226246112005-11-28T12:24:00.000-05:002005-11-28T12:24:00.000-05:00"To paraphrase revenant, freedom of speech does no..."To paraphrase revenant, freedom of speech does not, nor should it, prevent you from receiving private (as in, non-state action) disapproval for intemperate expression of a valid opinion."<BR/><BR/>Except that's not what happened. There were calls that he be fired and forced to go through "tolerance training". The school was ready to hold an emergency session to discuss the situation. What was there to discuss except that it appears likely he was going to be sanctioned or fired for expressing his views.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133198075986769822005-11-28T12:14:00.000-05:002005-11-28T12:14:00.000-05:00Brad,His threat was to "expose" them into silence,...Brad,<BR/><BR/><I>His threat was to "expose" them into silence, so that they "won't dare show their face." I tend to read that as to shame someone, publicly, for their views. As opposed to, say, lobbying that a group not be allowed to speak at all, or taking any other measures that rely on abuse of power.</I><BR/><BR/>This is certainly a plausiable readings of his actions. However, you will admit that I don't exactly have to dig to draw out an interpretation that he is indeed attempting to restrict opposing viewpoints, won't you?<BR/><BR/>To paraphrase revenant, freedom of speech does not, nor should it, prevent you from receiving private (as in, non-state action) disapproval for intemperate expression of a valid opinion.<BR/><BR/>To put it another way, what does the indelicacy of expression used by Daly say about his likely professorial abilities? Do I think he should be fired just for this incident? Probably not. Does it upset me that he has 'resigned'? Not in the least.Poohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088628100700088755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133190215948236842005-11-28T10:03:00.000-05:002005-11-28T10:03:00.000-05:00"I'm not sure the student in this case demanded th..."I'm not sure the student in this case demanded the firing of the instructor, though some conservatives certainly did."<BR/><BR/>She did - I heard her say as much on the radio which is how I first heard about this case. She also was the one to demand tolerance training. Read this press release from the YAF:<BR/><BR/>http://www.yaf.org/press/11_17_05.html<BR/><BR/>It reads like a screed for some nutto left-wing outfit. Just replace the names and the offenses and you could be reading the latest diatribe from any leftwing campus organization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133187505826669572005-11-28T09:18:00.000-05:002005-11-28T09:18:00.000-05:00ampersand: I would certainly never deny that lefti...ampersand: I would certainly never deny that leftists and leftist groups have often defended conservatives' free speech rights in the universities. My "if the shoe were on the other foot" question was reserved specifically for this type of scenario (i.e., an abusive email by a professor to a student with whom he disagrees, containing advocacy of violence).<BR/><BR/>anonymous: I'm not sure the student in this case demanded the firing of the instructor, though some conservatives certainly did.<BR/><BR/>I'm of two minds about this case. I think there is a legitimate issue of academic freedom here, but there are other issues as well ... including, as has been noted, the fact that the professor specifically stated that his agenda was to silence the speech of those with whom he disagrees.<BR/><BR/>revenant, interesting that you think the fact that Daly sent the email from a private account makes it less relevant to academic freedom.Cathy Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688616617444359647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133169320504682492005-11-28T04:15:00.000-05:002005-11-28T04:15:00.000-05:00However, I think you're on somewhat shakier ground...<I>However, I think you're on somewhat shakier ground in equating Edward Swan with John Daly.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to equate them; merely to point out that it's not unknown for left-wingers to object to violations of the free speech of right-wingers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11306845.post-1133162793215293942005-11-28T02:26:00.000-05:002005-11-28T02:26:00.000-05:00The email in question was a private message, unrel...The email in question was a private message, unrelated to Daly's research, sent from a non-work account. The principle of academic freedom doesn't cover it, nor should it.<BR/><BR/>I also think it is questionable to say that his right to free speech was violated. He wasn't jailed, fined, censored, or prevented from speaking. Freedom of speech does not mean "other people are required to keep paying you even if you're a raging asshole".Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.com